THE WEB3 SUMMIT — Day 1
Speaker 11 Looks like we're live.
Speaker 10 It's online. Yeah. Cool.
Speaker 11 Alright. We're live. Wow. We've got four people v four people are watching. Fantastic. We've got quite the setup. Alright. So we're gonna get our guests in here, and we'll get started at twelve. And I appreciate you guys for being here. We're we put a lot of time and energy into preparing this, so I'm super stoked. Love to see that it's actually working. Okay. Here, we're gonna pause for a sec, and we'll come back at twelve, and, we'll get started.
Speaker 10 Hello. Hello. Testing. Testing. Hello. Hello. Testing. Testing.
Speaker 11 Delta sauce, can you hear me? Looks like you can. I see your voice talking, but I don't see the sound.
Speaker 11 Nice. The sound works.
Speaker 11 Fantastic. Alright. And then we have Ohmes joining as well.
Brian What's up? Oh, not much.
Speaker 11 Nice. Happy Monday. Happy Monday indeed. Alright. Day one
Brian of of a three day event. How are you feeling? You ready?
Speaker 11 I'm feeling good. I've got all my all my liquids here, all my beverages and everything. So ready to roast. Oh, yeah. Let's get Ohmes up here. He's joined the backstage. Alright. There we go. Looks like we've got 66 people watching with us. That's pretty sick.
Speaker 11 Awesome. Ohmes, can you hear us?
Omz Hey, guys. How's it going? Good. Going good.
Speaker 11 Going good. Good. Fantastic. Alright. So, we'll get started here in just a sec. Looks like it's twelve on the dot. Awesome. So, let's go ahead and let's just dive right into it. I think everything is good. Can you see me on the stream? Yes. Yep. Looks like they can see me. Oh, no. I can
Brian see you in this. I don't know. I'm not looking as the ship.
Speaker 11 Let's check the actual stream. You could see me? Alright. Cool. Looks like we're good to go. Nice. Awesome. Well, welcome, everybody. I appreciate you being here. This panel today is the first of, the day one panels and talks. This is a three day summit for everybody joining who is maybe just learning about this. This is the Web three summit. This is designed to be able to teach people about Web three. All of these talks are being recorded. And what we're doing is basically having these talks with people from the space who have lived and breathed the space for years now, who love the space, who are here, you know, through ups and downs, bulls and bears to basically have fun and enjoy themselves and, who've been here through all of this, and they're still here. And these talks are really designed to teach people about the space from scratch.
So ultimately, if someone's brand new, we're we're taking these talks and putting them into a platform where people can access them as a public good. The digital asset museum is powering that. And, of course, our sponsors are the ones to really look at and say thank you for really fueling this entire initiative. So, the Web three Summit powered by our lead sponsor NightShare and also powered by, all of our other supporting sponsors, which I do want to list before we get started, just to give a quick shout out, and then we'll dive into the material here. So one moment here. Appreciate you guys. And this is my first time actually doing a stream on x, so I appreciate you bearing with me if there's any, technical issues. But shout out, of course, to NightShare for being our lead sponsor powering this entire summit. Shout out to Cindy.
Shout out to MJ Data. Shout out to OXMQQ. Shout out to Jason and Danielle Patterson. Shout out to the DeFi Funds, Autonomous Artifact, Spuma, Killian Moore, BaseThanos, and the OkayDGen guys, and Felix Felix Felix from CypherDudes. A massive appreciation for all of you for making this possible. Alright. So let's dive into this, and let's discuss, the topic of the panel, which is the mindset of one second. It's okay. I'm just getting my notebook. Nice. Nice. Alright. So we're gonna talk about the mindset of collecting and creating. And since this panel is, all three of us, we're gonna basically, I'm gonna moderate the talk, and we'll go basically, to everybody. And, really, it can be really free flowing, conversational. There's no real rigid way for us to have this talk. But the purpose again is to just talk about, like, if you're entering the space for the first time, how would you look at collecting?
How would you look at creating? And, you know, having Delta Sauce and Brian Brinkman, both of you guys, artists in the space for a while, massive respect to you. Ohm's a collector in the space, and also, I would say a creator as well. I mean, you put on an amazing live event recently. Shout out to you for that. So we'll get into all of that. But let's start this off and talk about, like, when you first got into the space, and we can start with Delta Sauce. When you first got into the space as a creator, on the creator side of things, what was something that you initially thought, and how have you grown since you've initially come in? I guess we'll we'll start it off like that.
Speaker 1 Well well well, for me, I I I came in, know, at the end of the bull market in 2021, like, September 2021. And, like, I I came in because I wanted a community to share my art with. I wanted to, like, share my artwork and my story with people. And, know, you funnily enough, like, I came in as a photographer. I didn't come in as an AI artist. I didn't know anything about AI back then. But for me, it was all centered around, like, this community vibe and just sharing our work with people and getting to know people and develop relationships with people that I really fell in love with when I came into the space.
Speaker 11 Nice. So then since that point, like, you've come in and you wanted to, of course, like, build relationships and you came in as a photographer. Like, what's changed for you since the point when you first came in? Like, what did you think about the space? What drew you in? And then now, like, how are you looking at things as an artist and a creator?
Speaker 1 For me, I I came in and, like, the thing that changed mostly, like, on the art side was, like, I fell in love with AIR and started just focusing mainly on that. But, you know, as the, you know, as the whole ecosystem has shifted over the years, I feel like, you know, we've kind of lost our way when it comes to the community vibe, and everything feels a little bit more siloed. And I really don't resonate with that at all. Like, I remember, you know, back then, it was so easy to, like, you know, transfer from you know, you you could go to any community and, like, you're well with open arms, and it feels very siloed nowadays. And, like, that's the worry about the space that I have moving forward is, like, it's gonna continue to become more siloed and siloed.
And I don't like that at all because it's just like again, like, I I hung out with every single crowd I could possibly hang out with back in 2021, and I don't think you can do that nowadays.
Speaker 11 Interesting. I'd love to get your your thoughts, Omes and Brian, on that actual topic there. Like, how the space has kind of developed in that way? Like, to have things become more siloed? And if so or if not, why do you think that? Let's start with Ohms.
Omz I think I mean, it's a tricky subject because I think there's one thing what what you see on Twitter is one thing, and what you see in reality is another thing. And so in my experience, at least, even when they're when it seems like there are silos or it seems like maybe there are people I wouldn't necessarily get along with based on what I see online. When I meet them in person, it's a completely different story. And I think that makes all the difference. I think it's very easy, especially when you've been in a bear for three, four years, for negative feelings to kind of fester and for people to get bitter and for people to start to resent each other. And you see that on the timeline. I mean, Twitter is designed to amplify negativity. Right? So I think there is an element of it for sure.
I think it's natural to an extent when you have a nascent, you know, space that's still early in its evolution for things to happen, for things to kind of fragment a little bit. But I don't from my perspective, at least, I don't consider myself in the silo, and I would always welcome anyone that approached me whether online or in person. But But it's tricky, so I understand where Delta's coming from. I I definitely see that impression.
Brian Yeah. I mean, my general feeling well, when I joined the space, I joined at the kind of the very beginning of 2020. There was only, like, a hundred, two hundred artists total in the space. So it was very easy for us all to be in the same, you know, with meetups and the same Discords. There was only, you know, so many Discords. It was, like, Joy and Kaldi and Josie, and, like, it was easy for everybody to be in that same silo. Once it expanded, then you started getting artists that came from word-of-mouth, whether it was from Nifty Gateway people or from KnownOrigin, all that. And then, like, the platforms became little bits of silos, and then the galleries made more silos. And then what really took off was the voice chat stuff with Clubhouse that created a lot of little clicks of people that, like, hung out in those rooms together.
I don't think any of that's necessarily a bad thing. It's just a lot of times as an artist when you join the space, you kind of join with a new class or cohort of other artists and you grow together, and your friend's success helps you succeed and you all collect each other and you're a part of that. I remember when Delta joined, he was a part of that cohort, and they all kind of collected each other and helped each other out. I think that's a normal thing, and I think it's healthy. Eventually, like Ohms said, through these in real life events, everything kind of coalesces, and all that all those walls kind of break down and everybody becomes more friendly and more close. But I think as the space expanded, it's impossible to have a close relationship with everybody.
And so you're gonna gravitate towards this, like, core group of people that are having the closest shared experience that you're having and kind of growth in that little click for a while.
Speaker 11 Yeah. I must say, like, I think, you know, obviously, have changed in, you know, massive ways. Like, we had that moment of our space where things blew up in such a crazy way. And, you know, a lot of growth phases are similar. When you look at different things that have blown up massively, they have that blow off top that people call it, and then it kind of fades off. And I think we hit that, you know, massive peak, and then things kind of had the blow off top. And now, you know, things have kind of faded off, but now all of the people that are still here, they're here because they are really interested in building in Web three.
They're interested in how Web three can impact other people, how it can integrate into, you know, like, new people entering the space, how it can integrate into their existing business, or how, like, if you've had a passion for creating or developing or make making art, how you can leverage Web three. So it's like things have really changed, but I think that now we're building the foundation for what is going to be the future of everything. Like, it was kind of like chaos in the beginning, but everybody was just pouring in because there was so much excitement. And, obviously, like, everybody was, you know, connecting with each other. We were all like everyone was winning. Right? And now when the space kinda gets a bit darker, things get more difficult. Things kind of do kinda silo in some way where there's, like, little clicks and groups and stuff.
And people are a lot of people are just fighting to survive. Like, if you had so many artists come into the space, they were all having success. They left their jobs to go full time. They, you know, became full time degens and traders and creators. And then all of a sudden, all of that liquidity just kind of disappeared in gradually. I think it puts us in a unique place to really build something more sustainable. So I do think it's a really unique point that Delta brought up there. You know? And on the topic of, like, collecting and creating, like, nowadays, how are you guys looking at the creating side of things? Like, are you being way more deliberate with what you meant? Are you feeling like, you know, it doesn't matter? You could be as risky as you want to be.
You know, obviously, we had an open edition phase. That was, like, a couple years ago. I feel like now I see less artists minting things, and I'm curious as to why. Like, what are your guys' thoughts on that on the creating side? We could start with Delta again.
Speaker 1 I I would say I've I've been a lot more intentional when it comes to releases. Like, I've been very, you know, specific, like, on a month to month basis. Okay. Like, this is what I'm gonna do for the next three months. I'm gonna focus on this and just developing out ideas on a longer time frame. And I I feel really grateful that I'm able to, like, actually do that because, like, it's it's, you know, it's very risky to, like, you know, put your heart and soul into, like, something for for ten months at a time. And then, you know, you you ramp up to release and you hope it does well because, like, you put ten months of your heart and soul into, like, a project or a collection, and you're hoping that, you know, it it, you know, potentially sells out or, you know, it gets recognition and all that.
So, like, I've been very intentional when it comes to releases just because, like, I, you know, I feel like I can afford to be a little bit more intentional and not reckless when it comes to releasing artwork and whatnot. So, like, that that's my mentality moving forward, and I'm gonna keep holding on to that. And, also, like, I've been more exploratory. Like, I've been looking at, like, physical art, like sculptures and just more, you know, prints and different kinds of prints and being more on the cusp of that as well as, you know, my intentional releases.
Speaker 11 And, Brian, I know recently you, like, you know, like, on the side of being more intentional, you did Brinkworks, which I think is an absolutely brilliant concept made by Tokenworks. If you wanna talk a little bit more about that, on the creator side, do you feel like that is a sustainable opportunity for creators to tap into, and would you recommend it for others?
Brian I hope so. I hope people look at what it does and iterate. So what it is is I presold a 100 passes for the year that guarantees, two series one of one of x and four editions. And, god, I'm three months into it now, four months, three months. And so every quarter, I'm releasing an edition, which is five pieces, and then the collectors can choose which of those additions they want, which determines the supply. And those collectors can also refund their money based on time held by burning the initial series one of one of x pass. And so far, only one person's burned. So so far, I think it's a success. But I think, you know, to me, talking or hearing what Delta was saying about the risk, ten months on a project to risk it on the platform. You might drop in a rough time.
You might not know what happens. I'm at a point now where I wanna experiment and try new things, and a lot of times that doesn't jive with the platforms, the galleries, the big drops. Those are kind of built for you to do what you're best known for and kind of repeat success. And so with this past concept, I saw it as these people are my core collecting group that are supporting me, new stuff in a way that eliminates the risk. Because right now, there's just so much risk in dropping. That's why, you know, a lot of us have really slowed down our one of ones, slowed down, you know, additions. I never did the open addition route, but I think there's just a lot of times there's, like, these weird pockets where, like, people are like, oh, the market's hot. I gotta drop right now.
A lot of bars kind of hold their works for those moments. I I wanna just create and put out work on a regular basis as of as I've always done. And then the other bigger risk right now is there's just a lot less platforms. There's a lot less support for artists to do drops right now. You know, the the auction houses have kind of gone away. The big marketplaces have mostly gone away. And so right now, it's kind of up to the artist to forge their own paths. And I think a a a patronage model like what I did works well for artists that have a core group. I mean, I I did it based on what I saw Panter Cheetah do with 12, collectors. And so it doesn't have to be a 100. It can be 12 people, and that can be enough to get you sustained through the year to keep creating art.
And my general opinion of this space is it's about survival. The artists that maintain themselves and are able to have the runway to pay the bills and make art long term ten, twenty years from now, we'll be in a place where we are sustainable. And so any way you can get to that is is the way to do it, and some of that might involve going off and being a trader on the side as well.
Speaker 11 Really, really powerful. A few things that I wanna touch on and talk with you, Omes, on on the collector side of things, because I love what Brian was saying there about the, you know, and it ties back to what Delta said too about the intention of, you know, finding a model that works for you, number one. Like, the Brink works model with Tokenworks, that's amazing when you have a group of people who are willing to be a part of it. And the fact you only had one person burn the pass, which for those watching, they can burn the pass at any time to get back the portion of money that hasn't yet been streamed to the creator through the model from TokenWorks funding. I believe it's called FundingWorks by TokenWorks. And you could check that out at funding.works, I believe. And you'll probably see Brian's project on there as well.
And, ultimately, I think that that's really powerful when you ultimately think back. What are we actually doing? We're really building a brand through our work, and who's gonna support that brand, and how do you actually make it a sustainable business in a sense? And I think that those are really interesting topics to touch on. So on, like, the collector side of things, Ohms, like, you know, with artists putting out what is noticeably less work, obviously, if, you know, you're putting out a large collection, it doesn't do well, it could be discouraging, or it can damage an artist potentially. And that's also an arguable point. But I wanna ask you, like, what are your takes right now on the mindset of collecting? Like, how are you looking at collecting? What words do you have for artists to really heed as they are in the current market dynamic?
Omz I mean, it's it's not that different in the sense that I think a lot of a lot of collectors are also stretched. You know, we're stretched for liquidity. We we can't it's not like the euphoric state it was in 2021, so you have to be a lot more selective. And, actually, for me, I think that's helped a lot because it's, like, ramped up my education. Because maybe, like, a lot of collectors, I didn't have an art collecting background coming in. So I got my education on the blockchain. Right? And in 2122, it was very exuberant. You collect anything. You'd spend a lot of a lot of eth, relatively speaking. So now in the in the last year or two years, you're forced to be more selective, but I think it's it's a good thing for collectors because it trains your eye. You get to spend more time.
You get to take more time. You get to be more selective, more careful, more thoughtful, and considerate about what you collect. Also, me, I mean, I see on the flip side, because it is so risky for artists, more risky to mint and and to pull work out, I actually see that as a signal. So when I see artists that are actually doing that, for me, that's, like, really a sign of courage and conviction. It's not to say that artists that don't don't have that. It's a different approach. But at least I pay attention to that. And so, honestly, I've seen some really great work come through in the last year or so, and I've collected as much as I can. And I actually feel, in a way, a lot better about the stuff I've collected in the last year than the stuff I collected in '21 and '22.
I think for various reasons, I touched on, like, just being more educated about it, having to, you know, the luxury of spending more time. And, also, I think just seeing the artists themselves evolve and and try a lot more new things.
Speaker 11 Interesting. So, like, with liquidity being stretched, do you feel like there are certain things that creators, like, would do that would entice collectors more? Because in times of stretched liquidity, I think of it usually as, like, you know, more degen opportunities are kind of attractive in order to drive liquidity versus, like, the pure appreciator opportunities, which, you know, there's no ROI typically involved in that. And maybe collectors are not looking for that. Maybe they're looking for just something that they can connect with. But I'm wondering what your take is on that. Like, how does an artist right now sell more in a market where liquidity is stretched?
Omz I think it's it's it comes back to narrative, putting out work where you really explain, like, you have something compelling to say. I mean, there've been there was a there was a drop the other day called ad space on verse by Mika Ben Amar that I thought was really cool. Not very high priced, relatively speaking, but very unique, cool concept. It's sold out pretty quickly. And there are other examples. I mean, Verse have done a few drops, similar drops where I thought, wow. That's really cool work. And one and and one of the reasons I think it it it was attractive to collectors is unique idea, concept, well presented. Okay. There was some platform support, so that helped with marketing and things like that. Reasonable prices, reasonable collection size. You're talking a 100 pieces or less in a lot of cases.
And so I think from that standpoint for artists, again, at the end of the day, you can only control what you can control. You do your best work, and then the chips fall where they may. But from a collective standpoint, I don't think you can think financially, at least short term. If you're gonna collect today, you're gonna be thinking, okay. Like, several years into the future, is this gonna be viewed as something really compelling, really unique, really interesting? You're not thinking, oh, can I flip this tomorrow for, a two x? You know, even the collection I mentioned, AdSpace or any other collection, you look, you won't see a lot of secondary sales, but the work is really good. So I think as a collector, you have to kinda temper your expectations and take a much longer term view on what on on on the work you're collecting.
And then for artists, I just say, like, you do your best and you view you know, you do the best you can. You and and you learn from every experience. From from from my standpoint as a collector, I will not fault an artist for experimenting, taking risks, in this environment. You know? We I think it's actually very commendable. So
Speaker 11 Nice. I do too. I think that taking risks in an uncertain market deserves respect a 100%. And I think that we've gone from a space where people don't sell out and then they get, like, a lot of, like, negative energy around not having a sellout. I think that our space has matured, and I'm curious to kinda see your thoughts as well, Delta Sauce and Brian, on, like, the idea of, like, putting something out there in the current market. You know, I do believe the space has matured that, you know, we don't immediately expect sellouts. It's okay to have a collection that doesn't sell out that maybe is a longer term thing. I think that something Roger Dickerman said, regarding pranksy's recent launch, recent meaning within the last, like, month, I suppose, where it didn't sell out immediately, and then he retracted it and said he's gonna refund everyone.
Something interesting I thought Roger Dickerman said was he would have expected ideally more story building, narrative reinforcement over time. So, like, your collection doesn't immediately sell out, but it's about not immediately selling out anymore. Like, the market isn't necessarily the same as it was. So it's about, like, storytelling. It's about building a narrative around what you're doing. Like, Ohmes was saying, like, reinforcing the narrative, doing something clever, doing something unique and fun and cool, something that you're excited about, but also at the same time that you can stand behind. If it doesn't go well, you're not ashamed because you poured your heart into it. You already won in that aspect. Right? And that's the way I think of it. And I'm curious what you guys think as well. So, Delta Sauce, what do you think in regards to putting something out there right now in the current market?
How are you looking at, releasing? Do you think releasing with a platform is the way to do it? Would you rather do it solo? What tips do you have? Or maybe not tips isn't even the right word, but more so, what thoughts and what energy do you think is necessary for an artist coming into a launch in the current environment?
Speaker 1 I I I would say honestly because I I have a collection that is, like, a year and three months old that hasn't minted out or hasn't sold out yet, and it's been a slow rollout, but it was kind of kind of designed intentionally to that because it's daily auctions. So it wasn't meant to sell out instantly. But for me, you know, having that long form narrative, I think, is very important because with that specific collection, I can talk about each piece every day because in the metadata for each piece, it's tied to a specific date in history. So I can always make a piece relevant and, you know, syncing long form. And I I would say as an artist coming into, like, the market now and looking at the market, like, have no expectations.
Ben I I threw away expectations, like, a year and a half ago.
Speaker 1 Like, I am very proud of the artwork that I put out. And, like, if it sells out, it sells out. If it doesn't, it just means stuff's available for collectors, you know, down the line that, know, eventually come in and resonate with that piece of artwork or that collection and wanna pick up some. And I I've always looked at it like that for, like, the last year and a half because, like, that's just how the market is. Like, if you look at, like, the the market as a whole and look at, like, who's dropping what. Like, most, you know, most collections are, like, getting to the 50% mark and then just slowing down on mints.
Speaker 1 a lot of the OpenSea launches have been like that as recently. You know? I I've had launches, like, you know, in in November where it got to the 85% mark, and I was happy. Like, I was ecstatic that it got that far minted out because, like, it resonated with that many people on that specific chain. So, like, I I tell a lot of the artists and, like, you know, let them know. I was like, you know, put your heart and soul into what you're you're creating, build narrative around it, like, you know, talk about it, but have no expectations on how the market is gonna take it or receive it right now because that's just the way the market is,
Speaker 1 I feel like putting expectations and carrying around that that weight all the time is will eventually lead to burnout, like, from an artist perspective. Because, like, you you get disappointed in yourself. Like, you beat yourself up saying, like, you know, is the artwork not good enough? Am I not doing a good enough job? And, like, I don't feel like that is really you know, I I don't feel like that's a good mentality to have when creating artwork. Like, create the best thing that you can create and be happy with what you're doing, be in love with what you're doing, and that's all that we can do at the end of the day as artists.
Speaker 11 Really interesting, and I respect a lot of that too. I completely agree. Brian, what are your thoughts on releasing in the current market and narrative building and just the mentality and mindset that someone should have when heading into the market at this exact moment?
Brian I think well, one, make art that you're proud of, and you know how to market and share. I mean, how you talk about the art is how the collectors will then share the art and tell their friends about it. The mechanics of releasing I'm looking back on my last year and how I went about it, and I find that there's a few things I try to do with each drop, which is have a level of fairness. I hate when I see private sales, and I don't have an option as a collector to collect it. I'm like, why did they DM me? So I look at that, and I go, I don't want anybody to feel like they didn't have a chance to support me or collect me. And whether that Brink works, I had a form on my website that you had to scroll down and fill out a form, and then you could get access to the allow list.
So, basically, anybody that was able to take a couple steps got access to it, and that, to me, was like a filter to get the degens to stay out of it, but to get people that actually wanted it in their hands. Because I think as artists, we have to curate our collectors if we want them to be good stewards and hold our work and not immediately flip it. But then find ways of expanding your collector base because I I I constantly worry that I keep selling to my same collectors, and I might be overburdening them with my work. And if they hit a moment where they need liquidity, then they're in a pickle and they have to sell a bunch of stuff. It happens to everyone, I try to limit that.
And so, you know and then and and to expand out of it, I do drops on other platforms, whether it's an ordinals drop or a fake rares drop or NFT boxes with Prenksy. Speaking of Prenksy, I did that with him earlier this year. I think there's a lot of opportunity for that. And then we can also occasionally do a one of one auction and just let that find their collector that wants it the most. And so that is what always goes down in my mind. It's like, how do I do a drop where a portion of this is going to the people that have supported me, a portion of it is going to new collectors that are interested in supporting me, but also making sure there's a fairness to it all so that nobody feels like, hey. I bought your work in the past.
Why didn't I get access to this? I think that's the thing that I I'm I'm sounding neurotic right now, but those are the things I worry about all the time. It's like, how do we make everybody happy in a situation? Because you know? And for us, you know, the the other thing I wanna touch on is as artists, we control our primary sales. That's the only thing we can control. We can't control the secondary, but we can control what we price it at and what we make the supply. And a lot of times when artists are not selling out and they hit this, like, dead zone in the middle of, like, the mint out, it's really stressful because it's a self imposed problem that we put on ourselves when we say, I think this should have 200 additions. Let's just sell out of this.
Maybe the solution is to never have a set number on mints and let the mint find itself. Maybe have a a hidden cap. But then, you know, whether a drop is successful or not is all based on these arbitrary supply expectations that we put into the drop, which should never really be there to begin with, if that makes sense.
Speaker 11 Yeah. That's that's a lot of wisdom right there. That's fantastic. I think that on curating your collectors, you know, it is about also creating the environment for the launch to attract the right collector. So, like, Raul Powell was talking about how he thinks it's disrespectful for artists to make you jump through, like, 11 hoops in order to just collect the work. And I'm not saying, like, you know, filling out a form is jumping through hoops. What I mean is, like, in reference to what he said is how, you know, sometimes it's like show up here on this exact minute, burn 12 works to get Yeah. This work. And, nothing wrong with burner games, I don't think. But I think that, when things get over gamified or kind of difficult, you're, putting up too many barriers, and then there's, like, a right amount.
It's kind of like the right sprinkle of, having, you know, the right person get attracted in. You know, like, in my experience with the Genesis launch from the Digital Asset Museum, having a forty eight hour open edition where, you know, there's no rush in needing to mint. So, like, you can sit with the work. I think that there's something special about doing a time limited open edition and basically allowing people to sit with the work, decide you know, give them the space to be able to sit and see, okay. Like, you know, how often are we sitting with art before we're just buying it? In 2021, I wasn't sitting with art very long before I was aping into stuff. And, you know, coming back to that again, curating your collectors, it is about creating the right environment, I think, to attract in the right person.
And I think you've done that incredibly well, Brian, and also Delta Sauce. I think that the strong collector base then also brings you back to, like, what is your floor? Like, different concepts around, like, protecting your floor. Does it even matter? You know, I'm curious to hear your take, Oms, and also both of you, Doug, And Brian. Does floor price matter? Does the way that artists sell work matter? Like, does FOMO make a difference for you? What are your thoughts in this realm of, you know, having the artist curate the collector?
Omz Yeah. I'll jump in. I mean, I think it's very wise. I think Brian had a lot of really,
Omz great points he made just there. I think it is important. As you said, the only thing you can control is the primary sales and how you filter the collectors. I mean, that can be done through marketing, that can be done through mechanics, lots of different ways. As far as things like well, FOMO, I think FOMO is a factor for every collector. Even if we don't admit it to ourselves, you know, there's a spectrum. But, like, in 2021, it was Max FOMO. And that's why I think you were seeing over oh, you know, a lot of overpays on on art because it was like, oh my god. It's a one of one. If I don't buy it right now, this other guy's gonna buy it. And, you know, like and some collectors like myself, we had experiences where we were gonna buy something and someone got in right before us.
And so I kind of traumatized that so then the next time we saw something we like, we like paid three times what we'd normally pay. So form was always a factor even in a slower market because of the because of the rarity, the fact that you especially when you're talking about one of ones. Right? I mean, why do one of ones get overbid? Right? It only takes two bidders to have enough FOMO to really fight it out and and raise the price of a piece. As far as floor price, I mean, it it matters and it doesn't. Right? I think on one hand, it matters as as far as making something affordable and enabling you as a collector to acquire it. On the other hand, I don't see it mattering in the sense as a signal of the future value of the work.
So I don't actually I don't actually think it matters in that sense. I actually don't put a lot of stock in a lot of the things we see in the market today in terms of determining future value. Like, I think the the the things we see today are all more indicative of influencers from in high you know, more like short term mechanics. But I I have a very strong feeling and maybe a thesis that ten years from now, ninety nine percent of the things that are at the top of the market today may not be there. And so I don't consider floor price as a signal, but, of course, I care about it as a collector because if I'm interested in collecting work from a collection, the floor price will determine what I can afford.
Speaker 11 So do you think that, you know, like, if you see an artist and they have, I mean, a really low floor price and a lot of supply, does it affect whether you would spend a lot of money on a one of one from that artist?
Omz I mean, it's tricky. I mean, that'll definitely put a ceiling on what you would spend at least today. But, again, you have to differentiate between the different work. You know, an artist might have a thousand works out there, but maybe out of those five might be really, really special, really unique, really compelling in some way, potentially more much more valuable than the others. And there are a lot of artists I won't name names, but there a lot of artists that are extremely prolific, you know, who put out a lot of work that I have no problem continually continuing to collect work. Sometimes I'll pay more for a certain one of one than another from the same artist just because of certain value or attributes of that work, whether it's the concept, whether it's, you know, technique, aesthetics, whatever.
So even within the same for the same artist, you know, you'll see I've paid 10 times, you know, as much for one piece than another, and I'm fine doing that. Because you have to make allowance that different pieces should have different prices and different value.
Speaker 11 Very interesting. You know, a lot of this conversation, I think it's like, if you're to try to make a guide of sorts for someone to go through, there really is no, like, one a b c d path. Like, you know, things matter to some people. They don't matter to other people. It's a very interesting thing, and I think it leaves the artist in a state of confusion sometimes with what to do. Like, what do I price my work at? Like, what how what should my supply be? So I feel like from the perspective of the artist, like, how do you come up with the answer to those questions? Brian, what do you think?
Brian There's a mathematic to it to a degree. For a new artist joining the space, it's really hard. I would say, you know, one thing you can do as a new artist is release art over a period of time, preferably one of ones, that kind of determine what your price is. And then based on that, you can divide it out to figure out what your addition should be. The challenge is as much as we wanna think that we're up only type of artists, the space is not up only with the exception of maybe, like, three artists. And so as we put more supply out, the price slowly will dip down. And so I usually well, it goes, okay. What are my addition? What's the floor of my general additions? And then I'll say, you know, someone gave me advice early on those.
Whatever you think it's worth, price it at half of that. And so I'll say, okay. Let's say my floor is point o eight. I'll do this new drop at point o four. And kind of talking about that idea of floor prices, I do think they matter on a psychological level. If you collect a piece of art from somebody and you immediately see it's up being floored for half of that, you're less likely to collect from that artist again because you don't see that kind of value maintaining. And so I am more inclined to take a hit on my potential profits of the sale if it means that the price then goes up a little bit and finds an equilibrium above that point? Because then those collectors will see that I'm thinking of their value, and they'll probably come back and support me again in the future.
And so that, you know, that plays into it to a degree. And then the other aspect about the floor, going back to that, is a lot of times, a lot of collectors of space, especially the kind of small DGN ones, they just want access to an arch. They want an x copy. They want they wanna hit these checkboxes on I have a clear silver. I have a Beeple. I have all. And so they're gonna go find whatever the cheapest available pieces from that artist. They're not gonna go buy a one of one. They're gonna say, what's the the cheapest floor? I'm gonna go scoop that, and then I have access to their collector's Discord and possible future stuff and all these other things. And so floor price does matter in that if you put out a 10,000 edition thing and your floor price is $4, a lot of collectors are just gonna scoop that $4 thing.
And and maybe a percentage of those people will become bigger fans and collect bigger stuff, but usually, that's the mentality I've seen play out.
Speaker 11 Very interesting. Delta sauce, curious your take on, you know, how how do you price? How do you go to market with, like, your supply? Like, are you thinking about these same things like Brian is talking about?
Speaker 1 Oh, 101100% all all the time. And, like, I I'm of the same mindset as Brian when it comes to pricing. It's just like, you know, making things a little bit more affordable, like, under the floor price of what, you know, is available on your market. Think it's very important because, like, it incentivizes, like, you're not there to, like, max extract, get the max amount of money for your artwork. You're you're looking out for the collectors that do wanna support. You do wanna come in and and pick up a piece of artwork. I I I mean, I could bring a comparison up this month. Like, I did a Tesla struck this month.
Speaker 1 very, very, very affordable additions. Like, a a 10 out 10 for $45 on Tesla. Like and, you know, that was twofold. That was so that you know, I haven't minted on Tesla since two years. So it was basically me coming back into the ecosystem of things. And, also, like, I just wanted to be, you know, priced affordably, like and just give people, like, that incentive. Like, I'm back. I'm I'm here. I wanna, like, you know, reintegrate back with the Tesla's ecosystem because I really love what's going on over there, like, art wise and the community wise. So, like, I I think looking at it from that perspective is important. And I also have, like, a talk with Dice, like, last month about, like, this and, like, you know, affordable pricing of your artwork so that you do have people that, you know, potentially come into your ecosystem that do end up flipping your you know, flipping the artwork because that's always gonna happen.
There's always gonna be flippers in your ecosystem. But what what I've been noticing, like, throughout the whole ecosystem is, like, people that end up, like, flipping the artwork tend to come back and buy more artwork, you
Speaker 1 You know? What whether it is to collect or flip again. But, like, you know, second time buyers and and buyers that we keep coming back in because, you know, they see what you're doing and they want they sort of resonate with, like, the artwork. I think it's very important. So, like, you're always gonna have those flippers. You're always gonna have those speculators and, like, you know, balancing the scales for, like, the true collectors, the collectors that are coming in to buy the artwork for permanent acquisition or buying the artwork because they truly love it. And, you know, then then balancing with those, you know, the people that come in for the speculative aspect, I think, is very important as well.
Speaker 11 Yeah. It's almost like you're you know, if you could for example, x copy is a great example of this at at the high end pricing side. Like, he has people who are lining up to get on the raffle to pay 3 ETH for an addition of 42, and then it's immediately got a Weth bid of 8 ETH. Right? Or 8 Weth. You know, that's interesting. Right? Because he could charge more, but then it's an ecosystem game. It's like you wanna charge the price or, you know, price it in a way that a collector knows that they're getting the value right there. It's like if I lined up a lemonade stand on the corner and I was like, hey. If you give me a dollar, I'll give you $2 back. You'd start getting a line of people showing up to give you money.
And that's kind of an interesting concept is, like, what are we actually selling? We're selling art. Right? But we're also selling our own currency. And I'm curious on if you guys think of it this way as well. Like, your art is your currency. Your currency is your own design, your own style, your own brand, your own thing that you built. You figured out, you know, what people really like to see from you. Like in the traditional art world, people, you know, don't really like and maybe just in all of art, people don't really like when artists switch up their style. People don't really like when an artist has a one of one and they do the certain style and then they do a really low price edition, the same exact style work. You feel maybe slighted in some way by the artist that, like, you know, there's a lot of weird and interesting emotions to discuss there.
But overall, I think that, like, we're building a currency, and it's kind of like what makes your currency unique and how do you go about, like, slowly adding value to your ecosystem, pricing things in a way that you know, like, if a collector buys this, they can be pretty excited about the idea that, like, the value is there. You're not just thinking, what's the max price I could charge? That's what I'm gonna charge. So I'm curious, like, on the collector side, you know, hearing all of that from the artist side, and I'd like to hear all of your guys' takes on this because I know you all of you are collectors as well. Starting with you, like, do you feel like, you know, going back to the price side of things, if an artist is pricing things to where you know, like, I buy this, I know there's a return on my investment versus an artist pricing and you know that you're buying it for the sake of just holding it.
Is it affecting the way that you're looking at these artists overall at the end? Is it affecting the way that you would, you know, be more magnetized to an x copy because you know that the value is going to be immediately higher after you buy? And, like, how does an artist who's just getting started create that currency so that they know, like, they're adding value to the collector. They're not extracting, and it's something that everybody's kind of winning. I know that's kind of a big question, but curious, like, your take on that umbrella and that, like, ball of what feels like confusion for a new artist and, like, kind of giving some direction there from the collector side.
Omz No. It's a good I mean, again, the guys made great points. As Brian said, you know, your perception can be influenced by what happens to the price after you collect. Right? And it's very easy. I can see how that can that can make affect how a collector feels. I mean, the experience the example I think about, because I've experienced this myself, is when when an artist goes let's say, they've been minting one of ones on foundation. They've been doing that. They've been getting some modest success, and then they get on super air. And then they go to mint their super air genesis. What I've seen some artists, I wouldn't say majority, but a few artists do is they suddenly, like, quadruple their price on their super air genesis compared to their last sale on foundation. And, like, that to me just me personally, can't speak for other collectors, but that can pull me off.
Yeah? Because it's like, what I start to question the artist's mentality. So why did you decide this piece, which is very similar, you know, in style and technique and everything else to the other work that you've been selling on foundation for x amount? Why did you suddenly decide it's worth 4 x? Because it's on super air? And that that can give away a little bit or can reveal a little bit about the mentality of an artist, and and that to me is like a negative signal. Right? So it's like it's it's it's a bit, like, maybe not necessarily applicable to additions, but when it comes to one on ones, it's like, you know, you gotta think long term as an artist. You don't wanna have your cake in one go. Right? You don't wanna, like, make all your profit in that first one or two pieces you meant.
You may get those sales, but then you may lose all these other future sales down the line. And I think a lot of artists suffered from this in 2021 where they saw an opportunity, they saw a collector, they saw the euphoria, and they were able to sell their work for relatively high prices. But then today, they struggle to sell for 10 or 20% of those prices. And so maybe if they had taken a different approach in twenty twenty twenty one, they've been more patient with their pricing, The outcome may be different today. I'm not sure. So that's one of the things that I I mean, that came to mind right away when you were when you were discussing that because that's something I experienced first time. There were artists I was very interested in collecting work from.
They, like, slapped a massive premium on the price because it was on super air, and they couldn't justify to me when I asked them. Like, you know, how come you decided, you know, set this price, and I didn't end up collecting from them? But, again, that's very particular to me, maybe maybe not the same for others.
Speaker 11 I'm really curious on, like, you know, your perspective for the artist in the moment of like, is it always about thinking how do I make the collector have the best deal? Or do you think that it's about, like, the artist you know, if they wanna increase their price, how do they how do they do it? Like, is it better to just price at a 0 ETH reserve and just let the market decide every single time? What's your take there? And I'd love to also then extend that same question to the rest of the panel. But, Omz, what do you think about that?
Omz No. It's definitely a challenge, and I don't envy artists for having to deal with this because as well, when market conditions change, you suddenly have a different environment that you're trying to price at. So pricing that was very reasonable a year ago, all of a sudden, you have to make adjustments for it. It's not easy psychologically for an artist to accept that. You know? So I understand that. Look. I'm a big in general, whether you're an artist or a collector, I'm a big believer in the idea of that you learn as you go, and, like, you can't be too hard on yourself if things don't work out the first time. You know? So with pricing, I would take the same approach. You know, be honest with yourself. Look at your price history. Look at the graduation and prices.
I think using reserves, I wouldn't necessarily use a zero reserve, but using reserves is a good way of doing that because then you start to see, you know, the level find itself organically or more organically, and then you can adjust accordingly. So I've seen I mean, you even see there are artists selling work on Super Air today where you can see the progression. Like, I can think of two examples, like Perfect Loop and RJ. They're both relatively, you know, recent on super air, but you can see progression in their prices. Their prices have been going up, but they're still selling almost every well, every time they they have a new piece out there. And so you can follow that progression. Right? They didn't go from sale one to sale two and double their price. They had, like, several at a similar level, and then they they moved one a little higher.
They saw it sold. Then they moved a couple more, and then they kept gradually moving it up there. And so it's at the end of the day, guess, it's supply and demand. Right? So you see how the market responds to your prices and and you adjust, you know, and you do it gradually and then but don't be too hard on yourself as well if you have to if you have to run, you know, like, run it back or lower it or do any kind of adjustments. I'd say you're learning as you go, and I wouldn't be too hard on on yourself as an artist.
Speaker 11 A lot of trial and error, I guess, in that way. Brian, I see you nodding your head. What are your thoughts?
Brian Yeah. No. I think you kinda nailed it. It takes time. It takes I mean, there's two parts to it. One, yeah, we all had this, like, mania in 2021 where we're all kind of in COVID, illness, and prices were unsustainably high, and we're all kinda coming back from that. And I think for artists that were around then, we've hit hit a bottom, and now we're kind of rebuilding. You know, a lot of it has to do with external factors. What what makes an artist more popular in a moment? What creates that FOMO supply and demand? Sometimes it's a tweet from Raul, or it could be being in an auction house or being in Art Basel or, you know, look at ACK. He did a collab with x copy, and that catapulted him to another stage. And so you know? And then a lot of it's just word-of-mouth.
A lot of the collectors are in chats together, and they say, hey. This RJ guy is interesting. I like his stuff. And then that creates that FOMO and that that kinda cycle, and, you know, these artists will have their kind of moments. And I tend Look at a lot of it's, you know, it's not a progression of, like, up only. I see it as these ripple effects, and there's, like, a drop that'll happen that's like, boom, RJ. And that'll ripple out, and he'll have some time and some collectors, and then that'll dissipate for a minute. And then six months later, he'll have a big drop with foundation or something, and that will create a bigger drop. And that'll ripple for a little while, and then it'll dissipate. And for artists, I think it's a matter of just continually having these moments, these ripples a few times a year, and that ripple effect is the main drop.
And then that causes people to go, what else do they have available? And they go scoop some stuff on secondary. And I think we've all seen that when we have a moment, people start looking around at the past stuff. And so it's all about just looking and figuring out ways to create those moments. And sometimes you can be the artist can do that. And then sometimes it's something that's just totally organic on the collector side that, you know, you get a tweet from Cosimo or something, and people are, like, getting eyes on your stuff and going digging around. So it's really hard to, like, create a you know, there's a traditional art path of, like, how do we create, you know, supply and demand and squeeze this up and do kind of a pyramid type situation.
But those, again, are we've never really seen those sustain long term, and so it's about kind of creating a long term path. What do you think, Delta?
Speaker 1 No. I I I wholly 100% agree with this. Like, you know, there's always that that peak and then that die off afterwards. Like, it's always like that. It's not just this linear up graph all the time for, like, a career. So there's always gonna be that spike of interest, like, you know, that that shout out or that launched the platform. And then, you know, there's that little bit of die off afterwards. And I always say, like, you know, as a full time artist, it's it's not about the peaks. It it's never about the peaks. It's about surviving the dips afterwards and, like, surviving the downturns in in our career for the longevity. Because, like, you know, the peaks are moments. Like, there are moments in our our career. So, like, you know, being here and lasting long enough, like, we've all experienced, like, you know, having that pivotal moment in our career and then the die off afterwards.
That's about surviving that die off. It's just, like, keep grinding and keep working for that next peak. You know? And I and I always bring that back because, like, I I've experienced it a lot in the space. So, like, you know and on the terms of pricing and whatnot, I feel like, you know, you have to price organically and you can't just, you know, be doubling your prices because you're going to a more, quote, unquote, esteemed platform. I just never saw, like you know, it never really made sense logically. Why would you double your prices? Because you're just going to a different platform. Because for for me, all of these platforms are just windows. Like, they're just window shopping. They're just like, you know, they're just capsules, you know, for the artwork to be sold on.
They're not really you know, you you could strip that all the way and you can go the manifold route as well, and it it would probably do the same thing. So for me, it's just like charging a premium for these doesn't make sense unless you're adding something to the artwork that is beyond just the digital side of thing. Maybe a physical one on one. I could see a price increase because that would be logistical, but, like, beyond just like that, it never really made sense to me. And, you know, going back to pricing itself, it's hard. Pricing is the hardest thing that I I feel. Like, for an artist, it is the hardest thing to do because it's just like you have to balance all of these scales to, like, equate to, like you know, you you want to get your your value out of the, you know, all of the, you know, energy you put into the artwork.
You wanna be able to get that, but you also wanna make, you know, the people that collect a little bit happy with what they're buying and whatnot.
Speaker 1 and that mentality of, like, maybe, you know, them getting a deal on the artwork itself right now. It's just like, you have to balance all of these scales, and I feel like it's the most challenging thing, you know, for me specifically. And I bet for a lot of ours is just like, how do you price in a way that, you know, makes sense logically? And, Brian, I would like to kick this back to you if you don't mind. Like, you know, you're also a, you know, full career artist right now. So has that been a struggle for you? Like, have has pricing been, like, you know, a struggle
Brian for I would say the price increase with platforms is usually because those platforms are taking a bigger percentage as they as the bigger the platform gets, they take a bigger chunk, and artists are having to raise their prices to make up the difference. And I think, you know, we've foundation was once for, like, about 3%. Now we're seeing platforms take up to 50%. And I think that's where you have to the artist has to go. Are they bringing collectors? Are they marketing? Are they coming to my house and shooting video of me working? Are they putting in the effort to warrant that? And then, you know, a lot of them do and some of them don't. And I think, luckily, in the same way that collectors all are in chats and sharing advice, artists are as well.
And if if a platform reaches out to you, you can reach out to any number of artists and say, hey. How was it to work with them? And you can kinda make a an educated judgment call on whether you think it's worth that that kind of percentage. But, yeah, I think as the space has gotten harder and harder to sell and having someone to be the marketing mouthpiece is usually a relief for the artists.
Speaker 11 Yeah. You know, this is such a good I love this conversation so much. I feel like this is so insightful for people to really feel and understand and see these perspectives. And I think that we need so much more of an interface for this type of conversation outside of just group chats, outside of just, you know, like, DM this person, maybe get a response, because this really helps people to understand what psychologically is happening. And I really appreciate these takes. So, it really means a lot for you guys to have come through today and to share your wisdom. You know, the the handshake between the artist and the collector, how that happens, how we can even just discuss with our collectors, what should I price this for? Like, asking those questions, that for me has been a successful way to figure out what people are thinking, whether the market responds ultimately still could be something different.
But, I think that it's really cool to just talk with your collectors, talk with people in your network, you know, DM people a lot, and, really understand, like, hey. Like, what are your thoughts on this? Like, it might they might not have a good answer even, but, just figuring out, like, if you were to price this, what would you price it at realistically? These are fun questions to ask, and, you know, the answers you get will probably vary, but you can kinda start to see what people are feeling in that exact moment. A week later, things can feel really different. If Eth, you know, takes a nosedive, things can feel different for collectors. Things tighten up maybe. But it's a game that we're playing every day, and I think that, you know, initiatives like this coming together where we can all share our knowledge, we can all help each other, I think that's the next phase of this space is for us to really unite, to really say, wow.
Okay. Brian Brinkman sold out his drop. That's a win for Web three. Delta Sauce sold out his drop. That's a win for all of us artists. What did we learn from it? Like so I really appreciate this conversation, and I'd like to end it off before we hand it to our next chat with, Wannabe, who's in, in backstage right now. I wanna ask you guys just like a rapid fire question. What is your message to the space right now? And if you it could be on anything. It could be on mindset. It could be on, collecting, creating. Just really under the topic, I guess, to make it a little easier, this talk was the mindset of collecting and creating. What is your one message to the space right now? And we can start with Om's if if that's alright.
Omz Yeah. Totally fine. Self compassion. You know, don't be too hard on yourself. Learn as you go. We're all learning. Nobody knows what they're doing. No right or wrong answers. So just be compassionate with yourself, honest with yourself, and do the best you can, and you can't go wrong.
Speaker 11 Nice. Brian or Delta. But,
Brian If you collect something, make an effort to share it and talk about why you collected it. I think the most important part about collecting is show showing and telling why you like it, and that is the best way to increase the value culturally of the work that you're liking. And I think a lot of people don't take that into consideration.
Speaker 11 Powerful. Absolutely agree. Delta, what what do you say?
Speaker 1 I I I would honestly say if you see, like, others in the space having their moment in the sun and, like, their success, always look at it from the perspective of, like, if they can do it, then so can you. I I feel like, you know, we we take for granted, like, and we always, like, put the blame on everything else. And and for me, it's just like when I see another artist, you know, get their big win, have their moment in the sun, like,
Speaker 1 I really, you know, put my my mind to the grindstone. I'm like, if they can do it, then I can do it. And I feel like that's sort of the mentality to have being an artist here in the space.
Speaker 11 Fantastic. You guys have been seriously amazing. I could talk with you guys for hours on end, I think. Hopefully, we can run this back again. I know that Delta and Brian, both of you guys are on some more panels coming up this week. Ohmes, I believe you might be as well. Potentially not. But regardless, you know, you guys all have such incredible voices, and I just feel really grateful to be here with you and to hear your guys' takes and to really have you guys share all this wisdom. It's been amazing. So thank you for being the first talk of the first day of the summit. Really appreciate your guys' time, and I will see you guys in future panels. And see you around the space for sure. So thank you for coming. Thanks for
Speaker 1 Have a good one, guys.
Speaker 11 Nice. Cool. Well, we'll go ahead and we'll move into the next talk. We're gonna take a quick break. So I'll put up our cool little, break banner, and, then we're gonna move into the talk with Wannabe. The next talk is on trading and collecting, how to identify your conviction. So, super stoked for that talk, and, I'm gonna go ahead and reorganize the stage here. We've got 440 viewers live right now. That's so cool. What's up, everyone, from all over the world, wherever you are? I appreciate you being here with us today. This entire summit is fueled by sponsors. So I will say if you feel like you're getting value out of this, this is a public good that the Digital Asset Museum, a five zero one c three nonprofit, is doing for Web 3.
Our goal and mission as an organization is to welcome the world into Web 3, to lift up artists, to honor artists, to tell the story of this space, and to preserve the history of it as we live it. And if you feel like you're being impacted by the space, or by the, summit and just by the organization as a whole, We'd love if you were to give whether a dollar or $5, you can donate to the organization on endowment. The link is in our bio on x. And regardless, you being here and, you know, giving support is massive, and we're all on the same mission together. We're all in this together, and our goal is to really bring everyone together with this summit to create a digital campfire for us to hang out around and really enjoy. So we'll move into that next talk.
Wannabe is gonna come up here in just a second, but, we'll do a quick pause, refresh. I gotta plug my laptop in, and, we'll be right back in two minutes. Alright? I appreciate all you guys. We'll do a quick countdown here.
Speaker 11 Let's run it one more time, and then we'll get started.
Speaker 10 Alright. We are back. We
Speaker 11 are back. We got our laptop charged. Looking good. Hope everybody's doing well out there, and I appreciate you being here and hanging out. So let's get started with our next talk with I wanna be. Really excited to chat with this guy. We're gonna bring him up on the stage here. Garrett, are you here?
Speaker 7 Yeah. I'm here. Can you hear me?
Speaker 11 Yes. We can. Are you gonna have camera on or off for this talk? I'm
Speaker 11 off. Okay. Cool. Perfect. Cool. Well, I'm stoked to get into it. The talk is about the on trading and collecting, how to identify your conviction. So, ultimately, I'm super stoked to talk with you about this because you're somebody who has been in the space, in the trenches, you know, day in and day out for a long time. Right? Tell us a bit about kinda, like, what you like, when you got started in the space and, ultimately, your how you feel your role in the space, is as a collector and also as a trader. And we can kinda get started from there and then, just have the conversation evolve naturally.
Speaker 7 Okay. Yeah. That works. So, yeah, I joined in October 2021, so a little bit later than most of the normal people. Missed out on a lot of the early runners like punks and apes and things of that nature. I actually had a friend who I just gamed with. He kept telling me he was like, hey, man. You should really get into NFTs. You would be really good at it. And I was like, man, that just sounds so stupid. I was like, there's no way I'm doing it. And he kept he kept telling me to do it for three or four months, and then come October, was like, you know what? Fine. I I will do it. I will entertain it. Let's see what happens. And, yeah, I think one of my first mints was a Pindar brain drops mint. And, I mean, it it back then, it was crazy.
It was like anything you minted within the next hour, it could two to five times. I mean, just instantly. It was ridiculous. It would be the most random stuff, eight time derivatives just going crazy. And so I started out. I put in a little bit less than 2 ETH at the time and that was when ETH was at, like, 4 k hitting all times. And so I was I was, like, the first time just all in buying the top and trading NFTs. Started out with about 2 e, ran it up to a 100 something in a couple of months just trading. Knew absolutely zero about art. I am not artistic by any means. Grew up and never, you know, did anything in any realm with art. So didn't really understand the art side of the space.
Mainly, it was just trading it and then started getting involved more so with, like, community style projects and kinda just started seeing who actually stayed in the space once the bear market hit. Obviously, a lot of people, a lot of traders and stuff, they they really just got wiped out. A lot of people bought with conviction, and that's that's the one thing about conviction is you can have it and you can just be wrong. And if you just go in too hard, you know, it it can be a brutal lesson. But at the same time, if you go in with conviction to something and you do hit it good, you know, it can be the best blessing. And I think the best one for me was BOEM with Dark Farms. Had just seen Dark Farms always on the timeline meme and just having a great time.
Really bringing, you know, the vibes that you want. He he he's never pessimistic, anything like that. He just memes about it and it is what it is. You know, life goes on. And so I saw the Bone presale. I was just like, you know, let me let me just throw a decent bid. Let me let me support him. He he comes. He shows up every day. He brings the best vibes. Let me just throw some money towards him and, you know, whatever happens, happens. No one no one no one knows what's gonna happen during a presale. And so I went to sleep that night, threw in about 20 to 25 solar roughly, and I woke up at, like, three or 4AM. I'm on East Coast, so woke up at about three or four and, I mean, I just have 100 Of pings.
Everyone's like, dude, like, boom is going crazy. How much are you up? And I was I looked at it, and I was up, like, two or 300 k. And I was like, okay. Like, that's that's insane. And I was just like, I'm going back to bed. Don't even care. So I just went back to bed, woke up, and over the next two days, it, you know, it got up to, like, 1.2 to 1.8 bill, which was about little over 1,000,000 for me. And so when that happened, it it would that was, like, the turning point of, okay. Now, like, I'm really gonna start collecting art because I'm just a smaller wallet, you know. It's hard to go and a lot of these pieces are, you know, anywhere from $50 to a couple thousand for the more quote unquote desired artist.
And so it it's hard to really get that collection going as a smaller wallet. But when you have those wins, you kinda just snowball. So the first thing that I did was I started cashing out some and just immediately rolling it into the Dark Farms community style artists. So, like, Chris Granenberg and people like that, who I just saw showing up every day in the small community. And that's where, like, my my collection kind of started. It was just collecting these artists who showed up every day, supported Dark Farms every day. And I kinda just started bridging out from there with people that I saw on the timeline every day, you know. And it wasn't even just dropping new works. It was just showing up, sharing their work, sharing their processes, sharing support for other artists.
You would see them in the comments, retweeting, liking, and that's kind of where I came from in the art scene. Again, you know, no no type of formal art school or anything like that. Just came from the vibes to help collect. That's that's how the space is ultimately gonna go. It all starts with artists and the people here. So Powerful.
Speaker 11 What a wild time. Like, BOEM was an incredible moment for the space, and I feel like it's those types of launches and opportunities where not anyone no one's really, like, thinking that this is the next, you know, like, thing since the best next best thing since sliced bread. They're literally like, well, you know, I think that I like this person. I wanna support them. And then next thing you know, it ends up going, like, parabolic and just everything goes crazy. That's, like, the story that a lot of people have with the BOEM presale is they only threw, like, some in. They didn't have, like, this crazy expectation, and then it just went nuts. So, like, when you're looking at, you know, opportunities nowadays, like, back then, it was kinda like anything that you're throwing at has an incredible opportunity to absolutely blow up.
I mean, during the time of BOEM even, that was after the major phase of things going crazy. That started, like, that presale mania. But as far as, like, right now, like, are you looking at things, like, much more conservatively, or, like, how are you finding opportunities now in this current market to try to open yourself up to BOEM like returns? Is that something you're currently thinking about, or is it like you're being more, like, holding back more so very reserved so that when the opportunity comes around, you can unload? Like, what's your take in that realm right now?
Speaker 7 Yeah. So it's all really just, like, risk management. Like I said, you know, conviction is a hell of a thing. You can have your highest highs, but also your lowest lows off of it. And, you know, it can it can be for the right reasons and it just doesn't work out. I know I know in the talk previously, you know, they were talking about, you know, some of their collections just they take a little bit more time to sell out and things like that. That's where, you know, you just kinda have to get a feel for it to your own personal taste with conviction. The one thing that I'm blessed at is that I have a group of friends who have been around for the past three, four years as well, and so we all just shoot our ideas, you know.
Whatever it is, if we're thinking about going in heavy into something, if we're thinking about collecting an art piece that's, you know, $10,000, anything like that, we can get other people's takes and, you know, everyone's gonna be different. Some people are gonna be like, yeah. Other people are gonna be like, you know, if you buy that, you're pretty much locking it up for five years if you expect to get any liquidity at any point. So it it's kinda just everyone's got their own style for conviction. You really just have to understand where you're at and what your goals are. You know? Are you trying to actually build your liquidity, or are you trying to collect something that's gonna be near and dear to your heart that you can put up on your wall that you can show people and things of that nature?
Speaker 11 Interesting. So, like, you're basically saying, like, first of all, finding your style, number one. Or maybe even number one is find your people. Because, like, you know, you have a group of friends where you can kind of ping things off each other like, hey. Have you guys seen this? What's going on with this? Does anyone have any information on this? Why is this going up in price so much? Or why is this going down in price so much? What do you think is, like, the best thing that someone say, like, someone's listening right now, and they're like, I wanna start dabbling and, you know, I wanna become a person who is, like, aping into things on chain, looking for good opportunities in the current market. Like, how are you finding that conviction? Is it really just, like, first of all, understand your style?
Like, do you wanna hold things long term? Do you wanna hold them short term? And is it also really key to have a group of people around you? What are your thoughts on those?
Speaker 7 Yeah. So I I think that they they kind of go hand in hand, you know. You gotta know your style, you gotta know what you wanna do, but you also do need your people around. Especially in this space, everyone knows it is chaotic. There's always stuff going on in any different sectors. So it it's nice to have additional sets of eyes to be able to go off and, you know, because we all have different styles, you know. If mine is finding things early and, you know, buying into NFT projects and stuff like that, Whereas, you know, one of my friends, he he's more formal in the art world and things of that nature. So if he sees something like, you know, if Tyler Hobbs released something or any of those type of artists, I mean, he knows them. So he would be like, hey.
You know, I think that these are gonna be a great price point for you. I know that you're kinda looking to diversify some funds into this to hold for the next five to ten years. So I think they just go hand in hand in understanding what you wanna do as well as finding your people that can also help you push to those goals that you want. And, I mean, obviously, that's that that's pretty hard. This space has a lot of noise. So it helps when you have more veteran presence and people who understand, you know, they're not just gonna blow smoke up you and you get you to buy into something just because they feel that it's a great idea and you kinda just ride that coattail. You gotta take what they say and be like, okay. You have to look at it through your lens and then go, okay.
Does this make sense for me? Because, you know, again, not every play a lot of people have the misconception that you need to do every play all the time. If you miss out on a great play, like, that's a terrible thing. And it's like, in this space, it's not. There's just simply too many plays. You have to be able to miss something and be like, okay, you know, it it's okay. I'm I'm happy for y'all. It's okay. Like, we'll find the next thing. Too many people get wrapped up in, oh, this hit it 10 times. Now I need to go find it 10 times right now. And, you know, when you get in that mindset, then you're hunting too hard and you start losing track of your style and your goals, and then it ultimately just leads to a a bad time.
Speaker 11 Yeah. It's like you're kind of rage trading. You're, like, you know, kind of, like, tilted because you're wanting to get the big, like, you know, profit or whatever. However you'd say it, it's like, you know, your friend hit a crazy multiple. So now, like, you're coping by, like, trying to go super hard to find the next crazy multiple, and it could lead you to basically just kind of clouding your own judgment. It's basically what you're saying kinda.
Speaker 11 Nice. So, like, for somebody now coming in, say, like, it's somebody who has bought stocks and, you know, has done some investing in the past. They're wanting to come into this space. How are you finding opportunities nowadays? Is it solely from just people in your group? And, like, what what's, like, the current day to day life for you looking for these kinds of opportunities? Are you sitting on your hands mostly? Like, what is that like?
Speaker 7 Yeah. Honestly, like, this market is probably one of the hardest because, you know, especially when Bitcoin was, like, right above a 100 k, you just wanna believe that that next bull market is just right around the corner. So and, I mean, I'm just I'm always bullish. So, like, I I have I would this this past three months has been so hard to, like, just make sure that the time is right and you're not jumping the gun too early and that you have enough liquidity to sustain because that's that's just what it is, you know. Unfortunately, timing is about 90% of it. You just you just have to be there for the right time and, you know, if you have your style, you can can go in any way you want in this space. It's very easy to make money, but again, you just have to do it in the right time.
Unfortunately, people learn that the hard way and you know, they always wanna believe that the bounce is right around the corner or that the next big thing is right around the corner. And it's shown over the past two years that, I mean, you know, you might get one or two things that really were, like, obvious. The rest of them, it's like, you know, it's like, where the hell did that come from? So for me, personally, a lot of mine has just been buying art in in terms of my conviction. I don't really I I trade meme coins, none of them are like, oh, this is the next Doge or anything like that. Because I just I personally can't see it. It's just like gaming NFTs, you know. I just don't personally see the gaming side being the side that brings the masses in terms of, you know, financial financial ability to scale.
I think that the art side, that personally to me has the most upside, But it's also gonna be one of those where you have to go in with the mindset of it's not gonna be a two, three month trade, it's gonna be a couple years. So finding the people like ACK and people like that who I believe are gonna be the next, like, big artists to really break down that barrier between web two and web three and make those ripples.
Speaker 11 Nice. I see I see your thought process there. So, like, how do you feel about identifying emerging artists? Like, just to add to that as well, like, for the digital asset museum, for example, like, what we're doing with curations, which some of which you've taken part in with DAMPAX and also with the Genesis launch, Those curations, we're looking to identify artists that we believe are in an emerging phase who are really like, we're putting our stake down to say we believe in these artists, and we're saying, like, these artists ten years from now, we wanna be championing them all that way. And our strategy is, like, we wanna build our permanent collection up of works that are unique to the moment and unique to the artist.
So, like, we now have about believe it's, a 150 or so, works in our permanent collection made up of emerging artists from the moment, and we plan to continue to do that year over year over year over year. And, you know, ten years from now, buying an RJ work from the Genesis, launch back from 2025, you know, you might look at that and say, wow. Like, that it's the provenance. Right? It's not like buying an artwork in the traditional world where the provenance is a bit more unclear. You don't know who else owns it. You don't know exactly when it was minted. So I'm, like, curious. Like, what is your take on identifying emerging artists? Do you dabble a lot with that, or is it more like, the, like, higher level artists that have more consensus? You're more interested in, like, parking your liquidity in that way.
Curious, like, your take on on that.
Speaker 7 Yeah. So in terms of identifying emerging artists, I I don't see it that way from my standpoint just because again, you know, I don't have any formal art education, anything like that. So when I talk to artists, it's typically because I see them on the timeline or in chat just talking, you know, bringing the vibe, sharing their process. And so typically, what it's been for me has been reaching out to them and kind of just talking about a certain artwork if it stuck out to me, learning more about their process, and just, like, what's going on with their life and things of that nature. Because, again, you know, I don't I don't know anything about art processes. I don't know anything about, you know, how AI plays a danger to artists, potentially anything of that nature. I I kinda just go in and see how our conversations go person to person.
How personable are they, and then go from there with kind of how I feel about their art. I I do a decent bit in terms of buying from artists. I I try to you know, for every male or anon artist, buy from a female artist. And I try to, you know, just go go about it that way. That way, there's a nice little, like, blanket around everything that I'm doing when I'm collecting, because I wanna try and make sure that, you know, everyone's is represented and that I build a collection that I would be proud of and not just be like, oh, hey, these are the biggest people. I need to only collect them because that's the only place that I see money. Because at the end of the day, we have to be willing to sacrifice some of our monetization to really grow the space forward.
And that starts with, you know, if you see an artist grinding every day, they haven't had a primary sale in six months. I mean, just just giving them that hope that, hey, there still are collectors out there who are watching you, who could be collecting from you, just keep going. So that's kind of my mindset with emerging artists. It's it's like just looking for those people who show up every day, who bring their talents to the table, who show it, who keep trying, keep doing it, especially in these past two years where things just it's been bleak for most artists. I do collect some bigger artists as well just to have that exposure, but it's a lot harder for me to buy something for 5 eth from one artist than it is for me to go out and spend 0.1 ETH on 50 artists.
Just because, again, you know, at the end of the day, if it's only 10 of us here, is the space really gonna be that loud? Probably not.
Speaker 11 Interesting. So do you feel like it's more like, what is your take on philanthropy in this sense? Is it more of a philanthropic collecting moment for you with a lot of these works, or are you thinking of it at, like, well, it's a mix of both. Like, I see this artist has been grinding. They haven't really had a lot of sales recently, so me bringing that hope to them gives me a lot of meaning, and I feel the love on that. But also at the same time, I believe in this artist. Like, where's the balance there from your way of identifying your conviction with a an emerging artist or an artist in general?
Speaker 7 Yeah. So I definitely think that it's it's a bit of both. There have been artists that, you know, I wanna collect from. I just haven't seen that artwork that's like, yes. This is this is one that I'm like, oh, yeah. But, I mean, there are other artists where, you know, I might not understand their style and it might not be the most desired, but I've talked to them and, you know, just that conversation makes me wanna say, hey, You know, I believe in you. I believe in where you're going. I might not understand it completely and, you know, it might not be my personal quote, unquote type, but I do believe in you and I wanna see you continue to grow and develop that style and that want in this space. You know?
Unfortunately, a lot of people are greedy in this space and it all goes back to the monetary aspect of it where a lot of people, they'll hit a big play and they'll turn around and cash it out and, you know, good for them, they'll they'll make their life better and it's just money that, you know, is gone from the space. I try to make sure that a little portion at least goes into, you know, going back into the space and pushing the space because that's that's and then end of the day, that is what's gonna push us further is if all of us are pushing further.
Speaker 11 Right. Yeah. Like so looking at the space long term, do you feel like your role as a collector is really, like, helping these artists to understand, like, the long term outlook on things and, like, to have them keep going, but also, like, your role as a collector is also to reinforce the future of it all? Like, is there any sort of monetary, like, outlook on it for you, or is most of your, like, your liquidity decisions, whether buying art or making a trade, focus on the long term? Is there any short term type of thinking for you?
Speaker 7 Oh, yeah. 100%. I mean, I I would be lying if I'd if I said that there was any difference. You know, unfortunately, short term has to pay the bills and everything of that nature. I don't I don't have a normal web two job anymore. I've just been web three for the past couple of years. So, I mean, at the end of the day, I do have to pay the bills if something, you know if I go and like, I I bought an ACK color study set for two eath, like, a year and a half ago. And then leading up to his Carnegie Hall moment, they were at, like, four to five eath. So, you know, I went and flipped it. I mean, it it just is what it is. And now I can go back and buy another one for 2 ETH again. You know, unfortunately, sometimes that is just part of the game.
Speaker 11 Yeah. I love that. I mean, like, I think we should encourage that too. Like, ultimately, these are you know, maybe ACK would think differently, honestly. I don't know if he's listening. But I think that, ultimately, we should encourage that these are tradable objects. Like, we can't really trade, traditional art in the same way. It's much more cumbersome. So, like, when a collector has an opportunity to make profit from a an acquisition, I think that it's a beautiful thing. So, like, how does that play a role in, like you know, because I know you explained how you think long term about artists, but, like, how does the like, how do you know when to make that move? Is it just a day to day type of thinking? Is it like, okay. I see that I'm up here in a certain amount.
Like, I'm willing to capitalize on this moment of extra attention. What is your mindset when it comes to taking profits?
Speaker 7 Yeah. It it's kinda just one of those things, like, the ACK moment, you know, all I saw on my timeline was everyone was rushing to buy because of Carnegie Hall and everything like that. And, you know, unfortunately, some people, like I said, they just they ride coattails, and they're just in it for a short flip. So them buying it for buying a full set for granted, most of the full set buyers weren't the actual ones. It was the independent additions that were just getting ran up because a lot of people are holding them. But a lot of those people were buying them for 0.5 eath, hoping to sell them for 0.7. And they were very short term thinkers.
So I knew that once after he was done with Carnegie Hall and that kind of just subsided and it was back to him doing his normal process of art and there wasn't, you know, a big exhibition coming up where it would get a lot of focus that prices would just, as they do, you know, normally slow down and a lot of those people would end up selling for losses. And, you know, it it's it's just one of those things where you kinda just get a feel for it. My strategy there was, you know, take that four to five e, roll it into farming for a little bit, try not to sit there and immediately turn around and spend it because the ultimate goal was to buy back that color study set at about 2 ETH again once that hype has subsided.
And I've actually been looking into it the past couple months where I'm like, okay. You know, it's it's slowly coming back down to where I can probably get another one here soon for about 2 ETH or less. And it's like and so now that that little bit of profit, the extra couple ETH, it just gets rolled into my normal day to day trading, you know, farming things like OpenSea, buying art on shape to quote unquote farm it, and, you know, all the other all the other nonsense in Web three, like like actual trading.
Speaker 11 Do you look at your day to day, like, p and l, or are you more focused on, like, a monthly type of style of looking at it? Or what is your way of saying, okay. Like, today, I, you know, I went out and got that day's bread, you know, ultimately. Like, do you think of it like that, or, like, are you thinking of your income since you're full time in Web three? Especially in the current times, it's been a lot trickier, and there have been less opportunities granted than, you know, 2021, for example, where every second there was an opportunity, you would literally go to lunch, and then your friends made generational wealth while you were at Chipotle. And you're like, damn. Like, I can't believe I missed that. But then you're just like, look. Like, eyes forward. Like, there's more opportunities.
Now it's a bit of a different market. There's less opportunities, but still there are opportunities. I'm curious. Like, how do you look at like, when you wake up in the morning, are you looking you know, you're going into your group. What's going on? What opportunities exists right now? Or, like, what is your routine? And, like, are you focused on making money every day or more so just, like, focused on slowly farming, slowly kind of, you know, doing the things that you have conviction in?
Speaker 7 Yeah. So my mine is a little bit different now in terms of how I look at it. Thankfully, I have pulled out way more than I ever put into crypto. So I kinda look at it a little bit differently. You know, it it's relatively easy for me to token trade and make whatever I need per month to just pay the bills. I live a pretty frugal lifestyle. You know, I don't I don't travel to a ton of events and stuff like that. Normally, I only go to Art Basel and stuff like that. So I'm pretty frugal, so it doesn't take a whole lot to really get by for me. So I'm kinda blessed in that aspect. My big thing is, you know, I have my vault wallets and it's how much stuff in this short time frame because, I I do believe that the NFT space is still in its infancy.
How much stuff can I just accumulate? Whether it is projects, whether it's one of ones, additions, how much can I just keep throwing in there before anyone realizes what's actually going on in this space? And, you know, the funny thing is is with art, it it doesn't show that monetary number normally. If you get a one of one, something like that, it's not gonna have if you paid, you know, a thousand dollars, it's not gonna have a thousand dollar offer on it. It's gonna show as a zero, quote unquote, because liquidity is that's just how liquidity is in the art market. So I try not to really worry about how much I'm spending or anything like that when I'm buying specifically art to support the space and artists. I kinda just do it, you know, based on how I feel.
And it it gets kinda weird, you know, over the over the past couple months. I've had my ebbs and flows where, you know, it might I might not buy anything for a month because trading has just been rough and, you know, it just is what it is. Sometimes that's how it is. Other months I had a had a month a couple well, I guess it was about a year ago now where my friends launched a platform and, you know, it was a basic shit coin trading platform. And I was lucky to snipe one that was super hyped, spent like $2, and it ended up turning into, like, 10 or 15 ETH, something like that. And so I immediately took that, took out 2 ETH, and, you know, it was like, okay.
There's two, three months bills paid, and then turned around and spent all the rest on art and things like that, buying from some artists that I consider in the, like, mid to bigger tier where, you know, it's it's 1 to 2 eth per piece and things of that nature. So I kinda just go with go with it as it as it comes. You know? If I hit a big play, I'll I'll go and splurge more. If not, then I gotta be a bit more decisive about who I'm supporting, why, and things of that nature.
Speaker 11 Nice. So your strategy really is, like, you stock up when you see good opportunities or you see cool things on the timeline or you see an artist who's releasing something limited or one of one or whatever feels right to you and your instinct kicks in, you wanna just hoard in your vault and know, like, on a long enough time frame, you believe in that artist, you believe in that mission, and you're, like, just slowly packing things into that vault. And you're using extra funds ultimately to do that. So, like, if you have a big play, you'll cut away some and use it to fill the vault, like, with with dope stuff ultimately. Is that kind of in alignment with what you're saying?
Speaker 7 Yeah. Exactly. And, you know, I think the the interesting part for me is is that as I've been doing this the past two years when NFTs have really started taking that darn down cycle is I've found myself less desiring, you know, the typical business style NFT project that wants to be, you know, the next big web IP or something like that. And I've really found myself being like, okay. I actually wanna go out and look for more artists. I wanna go find more art and buy art rather than, you know, go buy an Izuki or another Pudgy or something of that nature. Just because, you know, art is it's it's all gonna be destined on that one person of do they actually wanna keep showing up? Do they wanna keep delivering their art to people and things of that nature rather than being on a team that can run out of funds and things of that nature.
Speaker 11 Interesting. So, like, you're looking for those, like, kind of one off plays, not like the major consensus of, like, okay. I know I can buy a liquid asset like a Nizuki, for example. More so, you're looking for, like, what could end up being a major major multiple that's just you know, like, you buy an ACK color study full set right now, park it in your vault for five years, ACK ends up becoming, like, the next huge artist in web you know, more so worldly known, not even just in web three. And then you have, like, an incredible asset. Is it kind of more like that? Like or am I, like, am I understanding that correctly, ultimately?
Speaker 7 Yeah. Yeah. Because and my thinking is is that, you know, like like you're saying, if I go out and buy, you know, a 101 of ones, if one of them, one artist for one of those one of ones blows up to be that big, That alone could sit there and cover everything. And then it's like, okay. Now like, okay. Cool. I decided to sell it. Now I'm breakeven net on everything else. Well, now I just have a vault full of cool shit that I liked at the time or I liked the person and I wanted to support them. And, you know, it's just it it creates that cool story, that that cool collection that you just have now. And it's like, yeah. No one could blow up and it could all die and it's like, I'm alright with that.
Because at the end of the day, I still have the art and, you know, no one can take that. It's like, it's whatever. At the end of the day, it's I still have those items. I can still go out, show people them, and be like, yo, what do you think of this art? Oh, yeah. This artist, you know, they've been grinding in the space. You can go pick up a spot for a $150. And, you know, unfortunately, there are people out there who have no idea about this space, and they would be like, cool. Show me how. So yeah. I don't know. It I'm I'm definitely different than the average collector and stuff like that.
Speaker 11 Well, no. You know, I mean, like, I think you have a cool strategy of, like, how you found what works for you. And, like, back into the beginning of the talk as well, like, finding your style. Like, what works for you might not work for every single person, but it's, you know, kind of universal to say, like, find the style of what works for you and then lean into that. Develop your own strategy because it's not really just a one size fits all. I think that though it does it is a one size fits all in the sense of what is your strategy? Step one. You know, find your tribe of people that you can talk to and you can relate with and you can share stuff with, step two, or interchange those even. But, like, I like what you're doing as far as, like, you are slowly building up this vault.
It's not, like, stressful because you're really building it little by little, and you have a long time horizon. I'm curious, like, on the month to month side, you mentioned, like, it doesn't take much for you from token trading to, like, stack wins enough to cover your monthly burn ultimately. How are you stacking those wins? Like, what do you mean by token trading? Is that just trading majors like ETH, Bitcoin, etcetera? Are you leveraged trading? Are you using Hyperliquid? Or are you, like, MemeCoin trading to get those wins? What do you mean by token trading?
Speaker 7 Yeah. So right now, a lot of my focus is mainly trading any type of tokens, whether it's on base, sole, whatever. And I'm going through OpenSea right now because, obviously, they have their big farming campaign for their seed token. So pretty much, you know, this last month, aside from the week where I was down in Miami, it was just trade any type of tokens that have over a million in volume for either breakeven or slightly positive. And so just from that 1 ETH over the twenty something days, I think I made, like, 0.5 an ETH roughly, while also farming OpenSea. So, I mean, as long as I can do something like that I I did perps at one point, but, yeah, I'm just not disciplined enough for that. Lost, like, $10, and I was just like, yeah. No. I'm not. Can't do it.
I have friends that love them. They do them all the time and they're successful with it, but that's just not my style. So yeah. It's just just basic trading, you know. There sometimes I'll trade liquid in it more liquid NFTs like a zookey and things like that, you know, for basic little scalps. Just putting putting little bits together every little bit you can, and just just building from there.
Speaker 11 Nice. So, like, now we've talked a lot about, like, ultimately making money. And so, basically, you're saying, like, month to month, you know, you're farming stuff, and then there is a benefit and there's a payoff. And you have these, like, timeline moments where it's like, okay. Like, we're farming OpenSea. That's supposed to happen in q one twenty twenty six barring any postponements. That's obviously a big liquidity unlock for our space. That's pretty cool. And I saw in your chat, which sometimes I do scan through. I haven't been super active in there, but I love to be a part of it. I saw you mentioned it might have been on a pinned post on how, like, people how could they, like, ultimately be fading OpenSea's upcoming token? Like, it is under under the word I'm looking for is, like, there's not that much attention beyond season one now, season two, season three, of these of these farming opportunities for OpenSea.
Like, people aren't talking about it as much. Are you really bullish on OpenSea's farming? Like, what do you think is happening there?
Speaker 7 Yeah. So based on what they've shared with the tokenomics with, you know, 50% going to community initiatives with at least 25 per or, well, 50% of that, so 25% of the supply being unlocked on day one. I mean I mean, that's huge. And in terms of tokenomics for most other projects, I mean, you're looking at seven to 10% and stuff like that. So them coming out and I mean, it's essentially saying, hey. You 25% of the supply is unlocked on day one. I'm assuming the other 25% will probably be vested and whatnot. But, I mean, that that alone is massive. Back when Blur launched, everyone, you know, they they faded the first season and, I mean, the first season brought me in six figures just from that. And it's like people don't realize how big OpenSea actually is and its backings.
I mean, they've raised hundreds of millions of dollars. So to think that it's not worth even just doing, you know, your basic things and paying a little bit more on fees like swapping your tokens or buying an NFT, I just I can't personally comprehend why people would fade that and be like, oh, they're greedy, they're this, they're that, when, I mean, they they literally are openly trying to build a platform. Are they gonna make mistakes? Of course. But when you're trying to become, you know, the actual marketplace that does everything where people can go to and have a great experience, that should be expected. So I just I I can't comprehend people, especially, you know, NFT people and stuff like that, who are like, oh, well, I want 0% fees knowing that a token is on the horizon.
Like, no one no one you was using Blur the past six months before OpenSea started this farming campaign because they've already done a token. Now everyone's like, oh, well, I'm using Blur just to avoid a 1% fee. And that that's just silly to me personally.
Speaker 11 Yeah. I think, like, there's definitely alpha there in what you're saying. It's gonna be interesting to see how it plays out. They really have been working towards their token launch, like, really getting everyone teed up for it. There's been a lot of different takes on the timeline whether they should have just dove straight in and give the token, instead of having all the farming happen. You know, I guess that's neither here nor there in some sense. But, you know, aside from my own opinion on that, I'm curious on, like, you know, from, you know, like we said, the month to month side of things, you're kinda doing some farming, you're doing some token trading. But now how easy is it to lose money in this space? And what do you do when you lose money? And how do you know when to cut it? Like, what happens? What's the psychology of losing money, and and what does it lead to?
Speaker 7 Yeah. Of course. So, obviously, that is always a risk, especially with token trading and things of that nature. I've obviously been farming open sea every season as hard as I possibly can, typically hitting in their highest tier. So there are definitely losses, you know. It's not just wins. You kinda just have to go for your own personal risk appetite. I I took a pretty pretty deep loss about two weeks ago just because I got into a token that met all of my criteria and, you know, unfortunately, it just didn't work out. But at the same time, if you have your criteria, you have, you know, your your normal checklist of what you have to do, if you can stay disciplined, you will win more than you'll lose.
And so you can always make that loss back, as as long as you don't go and, you know, forget your checklist and try to purposely revenge trade it and be like, oh, I need this back right now. Typically, I try to you know, if I take a loss, just try to keep staying with my smaller wins and just replace that back in, and just wait until I do end up having that big win that comes through and just gives a nice little wind fall.
Speaker 11 Nice. Do you have any practices that you have when you have a big loss, like you're kinda saying, or when you have a big win? Do you do anything specific, whether it's step away for a little while? Like, do you notice certain strategies or sorry. Do you notice certain behaviors that happen when you have a big loss or you have a big win? Are you more aggressive if you start winning a lot? Are you more aggressive if you start losing a lot? Like, and aggressive meaning, like, taking more shots. Like, from the trading psychology side, how do you feel about that?
Speaker 7 Yeah. So, you know, it it's it's kind of hard. I I tend to take a lot more shots than most people just because I am severely active in the space. I I find myself constantly doing things whether it's buying NFTs that no one else is buying or trading tokens. So I definitely take plenty of losses, buy plenty of stuff that, you know, won't be able to sell and things of that nature. But it it just comes with the Aim of again, my my mindset is different than a lot of people's because I am living a more frugal lifestyle, and I've already cashed out way more than I've ever put in. So I kinda just don't take the losses as seriously as most people do. And and I think that that just helps keep that even keel of avoiding revenge trading and things like that.
I I tend to again, you know, especially in this past downturn, I I tend to stay full risk on just really trying to find those opportunities a lot harder than most people think that it is. You know, unfortunately, our space likes to glorify people who will always post that they're hitting a 100 times and another 10 times and then another 50 times when in reality, that's that's just not the space. It's easy to do if you have inside information, which does happen all the time, but just staying consistent and finding what you're good at. Some people are really good at trading NFTs and, you know, getting them on waste bids and stuff like that. Other people are really good at just trading tokens and not doing NFTs because they like the fast pace. They like being able to watch the chart and be like, oh, shit.
This dude just sold, you know, a big amount. I wonder if these early holders are gonna start selling and they just cut for a 2% loss rather than a 20. Just all goes back to style and conviction in your gut with what you're doing with your strategy.
Speaker 11 Nice. Yeah. It definitely does. Like, you know, personally, I've I've had, like, a big win. I noticed that I kind of am like, okay. Let's let's do more trading. Like, let's go harder. You know, it's just a tendency that I learn over time. And I think, like, trading psychology, like, you know, it's one thing to have a big win, but then it's another to, like, actually keep that money because you can really, like, end up giving that money back to the market, which a lot of people end up doing. And why does that happen? I'm curious why you think that maybe, you know, how do people end up keeping their money that they make from these epic wins? How have you ended up being able to do that?
Is it by removing it from the market, or is it by taking a step back, or is it just by having enough restraint to be smart enough to not blow it on the next shiny object?
Speaker 7 Yeah. So for me, it comes down to just just pulling it out, you know. Taking it out of the market and saying, okay, you know, I've made 15 k. Let me take out one k and, you know, that's then it's just done. It's like most people will turn around and use that money and try and, you know, keep compounding it and compounding it, trying to push it up fast. And I mean, like you said, they'll just give it back to the market. It's it's hard to tell people, you know, the the famous saying in the space is once you post that screenshot or something like that that you're up so much, you need to go ahead and sell. And, you know, I find myself doing that all the time where I'll be messaging in the group and I'll be like, holy shit. Just hit big.
And everyone in the group is like, alright. You know you have to start selling. Like, don't don't overthink it. And it's, like, it's so true. You have to, like, stay true to that to that style and that commitment because once you start going against it and being like, oh, no. No. No. It'll be fine. Well, then it's not. So and, you know, that's that's the good thing about having your people is they'll be able to hold you accountable to those principles that you've designated towards yourself to make sure that you're also still growing and holding true. It's like even if you only take 20% out and you just, you know, you cover your bases and you give yourself a little bit of extra profit, just making sure that you're not giving it all back.
Speaker 11 Right. Yeah. That's wisdom there for sure. Especially the screenshot thing. Like, you know, when you start sending screenshots to your friends, like, dude, I'm crushing it. You should probably sell because it's like that moment you're screenshotting is maybe the top. So, and it's it's just a funny thing. You know? There's a lot of humor too involved in, like, just this whole entire game. Like, it's funny when, like, people make a bunch of money. It's funny when people lose money. I mean, it it's funny when, you know, you're playing this and it's just numbers on a screen that are going up, and it just doesn't even feel real potentially. Like, all of it is something really to be enjoyed and experienced, I think. And, like, it's such a beautiful game to get to play.
So I feel like, I've really learned a lot from this conversation just about how you look at the market, how you look at artists, how you like to connect with artists, and how you make your decisions. And, for me, I've taken a lot of value from your words here, and I really appreciate the time, and for you coming here today and sharing kind of the insights that you've learned. As we wrap up, I'm curious, like, what's one thing that you would feel like you would wanna impart, say somebody here listening is, like, new to the game. What's one thing that you would say to them entering into this space if they wanna, you know, hit it big ultimately, make money and crush it and become like yourself, somebody who's stacked away a lot of funds so that you're good to go, like, as a human being, and they wanna, like, live that life of being full time in web three.
What would you say to that person just getting started?
Speaker 7 Yeah. You know, first thing, obviously, block out the noise. This space is so loud. Stick to your convictions. Understand why you're here and just, you know, don't don't be greedy. If if you make good money and you make, you know, what people would consider life changing money, secure it secure yourself and then, you know, go from there. Don't try to overdo it and be like, oh, yeah. You know? I I instead of saying, hey. I made a 100 k. Being like, oh, well, now I hit 7 figures. You know? Don't don't always chase that next high. Reevaluate once you hit it big and, you know, just just take that decompression time to really let your emotions be in check and, you know, just just have fun. Just have fun and meet people, connect, and, yeah, just just push push forward.
Speaker 11 Damn. Huge wisdom there. Decompression time is like I feel like that's been a huge unlock for me personally. So, like, I that absolutely resonates a lot. When you have those big wins, take some decompression. When you have some big losses, take some decompression. Don't just immediately roll back in. This has been awesome, man, and I really appreciate you coming through here, talking with us. We've got 580 people listening from all over the world, and, I know that definitely that has been a lot of value imparted on this talk. So thanks so much, Garrett. And, hopefully, we can chat again. And I know that, you're on some more panels as well, coming up in the coming days, so I look forward to those. And, I'm just really appreciative of you coming and spending the time here today and sharing the wisdom that you've really gained from years of experience, thousands of hours of experience in this realm. So I really appreciate that.
Speaker 7 Yeah. Of course. Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 11 Of course, man. It's it's an honor. We're gonna move on to that next talk now with Jonathan Mann, Song of Day, man. Super stoked and, to continue these panels and these talks. It's just banger after banger so far. So I'm just just super happy to, be helping facilitate this. I really appreciate you, Garrett, and, we'll talk on those next few panels.
Speaker 7 Sounds good. Have a good one.
Speaker 11 Alright. Later, man. Peace. We're gonna roll right into this next talk. No break needed. I'm super stoked to chat with Jonathan Mann. This is a absolute legend making songs for seventeen years straight every single day. You probably have seen him on the timeline. This is a gonna be super exciting to talk about. So this next talk, I'm gonna bring him on up here. What's going on, Jonathan? How are you?
Speaker 8 I'm good. How are you?
Speaker 11 Good. Good. Man, it's great to chat with you today. Yeah.
Speaker 8 Same. I've been listening. It's I've been very, very interested to hear everybody's, whatever you're saying. It's been it's been great so far.
Speaker 11 Thank you. I appreciate that. It's been awesome myself as well just being able to hear everybody's takes and get to kinda chime in with my own and also learn from all these people, including yourself. I'm really excited to learn from you. This talk's titled on chain music, daily artistic practice, and leveraging AI to create. So, like, starting off, a little bit of backstory on you. You've been making a song a day, probably multiple songs a day, for seventeen years. This is an unparalleled level of dedication to your craft. So I'm really curious on, like, what you've learned from that process. How has that been for you? Like, why did you start doing that, and what has that been like over these over these years?
Speaker 8 Yeah. Well, thank you, and thanks for setting this up. This is such this what a great, idea and and Thanks.
Speaker 8 I so, yeah, it'll be seventeen years on January 1. So in, you know, in two weeks, basically, it'll be seventeen years complete, and I will be entering my eighteenth year as we as we go forward. I started in it was 2009. It was the height of financial crisis. I was 26 and living at Berkeley, and I had nothing going on. That's basically why I started. I got a flyer from somebody for this thing called fun a day, which still happens. It's like an invitation in January to make an, one piece of art for every day in January. And I got this flyer, and I had nothing else going on. They said, okay. I'm gonna I'm gonna make a song a day in January. And then thirty one days came and went, and February '1 rolls around, and I just decided to make another song.
And then a year came and went. I decided to keep going, and then at some point, it just became my life. And, yeah, in terms of what I've learned, I mean, there's so much. It's, you know, we can sort of get into it. Some some things that are, I think, interesting I found is that, you know, like, as an artist, you know, listening to everybody's listen to, like, Brian speak and and and and the artists on the previous panels. Like, most artists that I know who are doing this in any kind of capacity as their job, make something every day. Like, that's not an unusual thing. You know, the only thing that makes what I do different is, like, putting the frame around it and calling it, you know, song a day and dedicating, like, one finished piece a day that I'm gonna share.
Like, those are the pieces that are unique, but the actual act of creation and creating every day is is pretty universal across across all of anyone that I know who who does this in in any kind of, you know, serious capacity. And I think that there's an element of, you know, perfectionism that a lot of artists and a lot of people, creative people in general struggle with, which is not something that I've ever struggled with. So sharing a song a day and making it every day has been it's was never a that part was never challenging for me. A lot of people find that part to be sort of the most challenging thing of like, oh god. I couldn't share the things that I make, you know, each day because they're not ready, and they're just they're just they're little bits. They're not the thing.
But for whatever reason, I don't have that bone. I don't have that gene that that that that gives that to me. But, you know, what's interesting I have learned about myself is that on the on the flip side, I have to learn I've I've had to learn the opposite. I've had to learn perfectionism. I've had to learn how to dive deep on something and try to make it as good as I can and not get bored, which is which is often the thing that that would stop me. And so that's been sort of part of my journey has been you know, I found that, like, people can watch song a day and feel inspired to break through their perfectionism in some way. But I find I am equally inspired by anyone who, you know, takes a month to make a song, a year to make a song or something, like, and really crafting it and honing it and, like, you know, chiseling away.
I find that extremely inspiring, and I love hearing their stories about how they do that and, like, how like, you know, like, how does that operate? How does that work?
Speaker 11 Yeah. Well, you know, though, too, like, the I guess you're saying, like, there's two sides of it, and and you have been born with the gift of not having the perfectionism to be overthinking the okay. Well, what if I put this out and what if it's not a million percent perfect, which has allowed you to have an an inclination to being able to share with less resistance is kind of what it feels like you're saying, which is massive. I think for artists, you know, creating every day, that is something that, you know, I feel like sometimes you run into a creative block. Maybe a week goes by, you don't make something. If you create every day, I think and I'm curious to hear your take on this, that it gives you the it lets you work the muscle of not worrying about, is this a million percent perfect.
Instead, you're thinking about, well, I'm gonna do the thing that I said I'm gonna do every single day. And some days, maybe you make an absolute banger work. Some days, maybe it's not your favorite work, but maybe it's your best work because sometimes the works that aren't our favorite end up being, like, the most viral and best. So, like, I feel like there's a lot to really learn there from somebody like yourself, especially for someone listening who may be an artist at heart, but they don't create every day, or maybe they're very busy and maybe they wanna be a full time artist, but they have a full time job. What is your routine for creating every day? Is it, like, in the morning, first thing you do, or is it just randomly throughout the day? Like, how does it fit in for you, and how do you not miss a day?
Speaker 8 Well, so to to to get to your, your first point, like, it's exactly you you hit the nail on the head. It's exactly right. In that, you know, so many things. Like, I used to I used to have this, like, the the in the beginning of Song of the Day, the thing that I would say was the seventy twenty ten rule, which is, like, 70% of all the songs will be mediocre, 10% will be great, and 20% will totally suck. And that would that's just like and so if I do, you know, 31 songs in a month, it's, like, three good ones, you know, a bunch of bad ones, and a bunch of mediocre ones, and and some bad ones.
But but what I found actually is that it's not quite so cut and dry or simple because the judgment of those categories is not only for me, uneven and not, you know, not set in stone, but for everybody, for every single person who sees it, they're gonna they're gonna take it in in a different way. And so I both have the experience for myself where I will go back and I'll listen to a year you know, I'll listen to 2013 or something. I'll go back and I'll listen to the year of 2013. And I will hear a song that I completely forgot about that I don't remember writing that had I placed it in the moment, I probably would have said a mediocre or bad song. But hearing it with twenty twenty five years, I'm like, woah. Like, what is this? I really like this.
This is really good. I would clearly put this in the good category. That happens all the time. And then like you said, also what happens all the time is that songs that I'm like, oh, this is really great. I'm gonna share this and people are gonna love it. It's like, it doesn't really resonate with anybody. And then things that I'm like, this is shitty. This is not great. Everyone's like, this is so cool. I love this. And I'm like, I I've learned that, you know, it has nothing to do with our own judgment. You know? Like, I've just I there's so little that you can gain from judging your own work. Doing that perfectionism thing for for a certain amount of time, I think, is valuable in and of itself because you go deep into a work and you really wrestle with it and you but it's not about necessarily judging it.
It's about, like, finding the best way to make it sound the best to you. You know, it's not saying, like, you're not you're not good right now. I have to make you better. It's more like, how can we grow you and how can we, like you know, that's what we're trying to say to the work. But, yeah, I think there's, like, really no downside in just, like, sharing things and letting people see them because you never know what's gonna happen. And then I forget what your actual question was.
Speaker 11 No. No. That, that's fantastic. Wow, man. Okay. Two things. So first, seventy twenty ten rule.
Speaker 11 I love that. And both of these, by the way, are underneath so the seventy twenty ten rule and also the what do we have to gain by being super judgmental of our own work?
Speaker 11 Both of those are under the umbrella for the creator of let's take a step back and understand that it's okay to make something that you think is not good. And, like, if we remove the resistance of that, I mean, if we remove the resistance of that plus what would we do if we couldn't fail type energy, like, well, we would try whatever we our heart wants to try. And, like, you know, a good friend of mine, someone I really respect, Did, who you also know, he said like, he has this piece of art that I love. It's called titled make bad art. It's one of his first on chain works. And I just love it because the message behind that, make bad art, Like, it takes away the stress from the creator of, okay. Like, this has to be my next best work.
Like, if I had an all time high, my next work has to be, like, absolutely incredible. I have to beat that. It creates all of these weird things. And what you've done so well is removed all of that stress because you're, like, seventy, twenty, 10. Some of these will suck. Some of these will be awesome. Some of these will be mediocre. Like, it doesn't matter, actually. That's brilliant.
Speaker 8 Yeah. Exactly. And and there's an element of play. You know? There's an element of, like, of of play that that that can be and and and I a lot of cases, I think, should be at the heart of that that sort of mode of create And there really, you know, there really are multiple modes. You know? Like, the perfectionism mode is a different mode and has a has a different mindset. But the act of creation, the act of, like, going from zero to one or whatever with with, like, a blank thing to a thing really is and can be and should be, like, in my mind, a lot about play and just letting it come as it comes and not judging it. And you're totally right about, like, the the making something bad thing. It's like it's like, really, like, what is the worst thing that's gonna happen if you make something bad?
Right? Even if you share something bad, it's like, okay. Like, maybe you'll feel bad for a minute and, like, people will be like, that's bad or whatever, but, like, but then that'll be over. And or you know? And then and you never know. Like, maybe somebody will I guarantee, like, you share something bad and somebody's gonna resonate with it. Like, that it's, like, gonna happen. You know? Yeah.
Speaker 11 Wow. I feel like just hearing this as a creator myself who I've been you know, I've made a lot of art and, like, I haven't made a new work in quite a while. But, you know, I think of what I work on as art as well. I think of this summit as art. Yeah. I think of, you know Oh, totally. You know, like, different things like that. It's every day is still a daily creation practice. And And
Speaker 8 following you know, you you follow anyone who has that creative spirit, and they follow that you follow where your interests are going in the moment. You know? They just go over here. I'm gonna put on a summit. I go over here. I'm gonna do this. That's all sort of part of the same stew.
Speaker 11 Yes. Amazing. That's such a cool way to put it. So, like, let's talk more about that. Like, what is this inner voice, if we'll call it a voice? You know, ACK calls it the muse. You know, a lot of people call it the muse. What is it? And what like, how do we put ourselves in a position to hear it and listen to it and kind of know what to do, like, on from your perspective?
Speaker 8 It's hard to know how how that feels for anyone else. You know? It's hard to know how the the urge to create feels for other people. I can only say, you know, how it feels for me. And and and certain kind of people have have put it into words in ways that I resonate with, which is, you know, a sense of, like, I have to. It's it's it's it's like a it's like it's like a compulsion in a good way, I guess. It's like a you know, people often when they learn that I make a song a day, they'll they'll say, like, you know, like, something obsessive about it or, like, it's like, it's this kinda OCD thing. And I I don't necessarily think that that that's there, although maybe there is. You know, someone could diagnose me. But, like, but for me, it really is this, like, this compulsion.
And I I can even remember being, like, a teenager when I started to write songs when I was, like, 12 and 13 years old. And I can very clearly remember this feeling of, like, just wanting to make songs so much. Like, I just like, wanting to write songs. At that time, it was like, I wanted to be like Bob Dylan. I wanna write, like, songs like Bob Dylan wrote songs. And I would have this feeling of wanting to make a song and then somehow not be able to, like, make it happen. And I had some sort of some form of writer's block where I would, you know, talk myself out of any idea that I would have and, like, I just wouldn't be able to follow through on it. And it was, like, you know, many years, of some version of that, before I got to the point where I could where I said, no.
Like, there's there's no such thing as writer's block. Like, all it is is me being afraid of making something. So there is this compulsion to create. There's this this kind of, like, I don't know, yeah, this urge that comes, and I you know, it keeps me up at night sometimes or whatever. And, it's funny because right now, I'm feeling it in a totally different way than I ever have before with, like, with vibe coding and with, the creation of different kinds of with coding, with things that I can make with code now with the with the help of LLMs, it's the exact same feeling. I'm just, like, drowning in in, like I have too many ideas, and and I'm like, I'm just so excited about all of them. I have, like, a billion tabs open on my computer, and I'm like, over here talking about this.
And it's just like, that's just what it feels like. It's just it feels like a very on that end too, it just feels like a really exciting time to be someone who is making stuff because the tools to do so are, are just so rapidly changing and making just so much more possible.
Speaker 11 Yeah. I mean, that's an incredible segue into, like, you know, the other parts of this talk. Again, the title of the talk being on chain music daily artistic practice leveraging AI to create. Leveraging AI is such a unique thing because, like, this is only just a few years old, really. I mean, like, recently, you've done some incredible projects, one of which was, not too long ago, which was, like, a full blown video game that is insane. It's, like, literally insane, and you use AI to make that. Is that right? Like
Speaker 8 Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. A 100%. And and that's been that's been, you know, in the last, like, six months or however long it's been, kind of all I've wanted to do with my days is is get my song done and then make video games. Like, it just, like, vibe code the shit out of some video games because I've always, video games have always been a huge part of my life. Some of the earliest stuff that I sort of went viral for back in the early two thousands were video game based, songs that I had done, and I made a rock opera about the Super Mario Brothers and, like, all this stuff. It's a very, like, integral part of my life. Never did I imagine that I would be able to actually make the games. You know, I always hope that maybe someday I would approach, you know, a developer and we would develop something together.
And then suddenly, the tools exist for me from, you know, not having really any kind of visual artistic ability from, like, top to bottom. I can generate the assets I need. I can generate the code I need to make it. So, you know, to date, I've made, like, three video games. The the first one was, like, around my 6,000 song about my crypto tax nightmare situation that I had where I made $3,000,000 and lost it. Speak speaking of to the last thing you were talking about is how do you make the money and then hold on to it? Difficulty is the answer to that question. And but then I one crazy thing too is I made another video game about the sort of when that at the Coldplay at the Coldplay concert where that couple got caught cheating on the Jumbotron at Coldplay.
I made a video game out of that, and it went insanely viral. It was like I went viral for being a video game developer. Like, people were calling me a game developer in these in these articles, and I was like, I just it was the funniest thing to me. So strange. But I the plan right now is that in January, in keeping with the thing a day make a thing a day in January, the plan right now is I'm gonna attempt to make a video game every day in the month of January. I'm gonna try to do a game a day and see how that goes.
Speaker 11 That's so sick. Isn't it crazy to think that that's possible?
Speaker 8 I've always, you know yeah. I've so long been like I would ask game developers. Was like, what would it take for you to be able to make a game a day? Like, could you is this even something that would be feasible? And be like, you know, maybe if you did a lot of prep work, like, you you could do something, but not really. Where I do think, like, we're at the point where someone with zero development skills like myself and zero, like, visual artistic ability, I can do it. I'm, like, I'm, like, leveraging, you know, Meshie, which turns, like, images into three d objects, and there's you can turn images into playable worlds. You can, yeah. It it it it's it's it's so exciting. It's just like it's it I get I get really, jazzed about it.
Speaker 11 Yeah. I love it, dude. I mean, like like okay. So, you know, more technical stuff then. Like, what tools are you using? Are you using GPT? Are you using Gemini?
Speaker 11 Banana? Are you using like, what are your favorite tools right now?
Speaker 8 Yeah. For sure. So it changes, you know, it changes all the time. So so as as anyone who vibe goes know, like, knows you you you will move from one, one LLM to another, like, as they get released, and they're all good for different things. And and, you know, for a long time, for for for the end of the last project that I just released, the every 2,000,000 blocks, which we can get into, I was using heavily, like, codecs, the, the ChatGPT based LLM coding thing. Now I'm back in cursor, actually. I've I found that, I'm enjoying being back in cursor, is sort of where I started. ChatGPT and Nano Banana are both really great for generating sprites, for generating, you know, little two d characters. It takes it takes a bit of, like, work, and it helps if you have some Photoshop skills to take what they make, bring them into Photoshop, and kinda make them exactly how you need them to be.
But you can just you can make them that way. I mentioned Meshie. I'm sure there may be other ones, but the one I'm using right now is called Meshie AI. And you can go do, like, text to three d object or image to three d object in a way that then, you know, you can just you put the thing, and then you have a three d object that you can use in the game. And then you can take if it's a person, for instance, you can take that and bring it into something called Mixamo, which is like an Adobe product where it'll rig it for you. So it'll give it the bones that it needs. It'll give, like, the if it's a humanoid humanoid thing, it'll give it the bones that it needs to then you can apply different animations to it so you can make it run, and you can make it punch, and you can make it do whatever you want.
There's a thing called WorldLabs, which is the take an image, and it goes straight from an image to a world that you can walk around in, that you can, like, fly around in, like, a three d three d world that that is suddenly appears. Those are and then and then on the on the technical on the really technical side, there's a framework called Phaser Phaser JS, which is for two d games. And then there's another one called Babylon JS, which is for three d games. And these are entirely code based video game frameworks. You know, I don't know understand technically how any of it works or what any of it means, but I don't have to because I can go to the LLM, and I'd be like, what do I use to make three d games with just code? They're like, three JS or Babylon JS.
Like, here's the choices. And so you try them out, and you see what it does, and then you're like, okay. Let's make a game. And what's fun about it too is I do feel like I learn a bit as I go. You know? Like, I would I'm not gonna get to the point where I'm gonna be able to code it myself, but I understand the general like, it's teaching me the general concepts as we go. Here's what a mesh is. You know? Here's how the bones are rigged and stuff. And, like, here's all this how it works. This is stuff that I'm learning as I you know, I generally, like, am learning from the LLM as we as we as we progress.
Speaker 11 Yeah. What are the limits? Like, you know, we really because if we can use an LLM to put things into the language to give the other LLM
Speaker 11 We can talk to it the way we talk. Like, if I'm like, okay. I want this to be like this. It's like, what do you want? Like, I want this to be like this. Okay. Well, how do I tell the other LLM to build it for me? So I ask one LLM, maybe it's GPT, whatever you're more comfortable with conversationally, feed that, tell me what to tell this LLM.
Speaker 11 That's like a hack. I mean, that's how I've used, like, GPT to work with Cursor, with Claude. Like, it's really brilliant. What do you think are the limits to this I mean, are there limits?
Speaker 8 I mean, I haven't found them yet. You know what I mean? It's like it it's it's so unknown right now, and it just seems like as the things get more and more powerful you know, there was another project that I made last fall called Human, and the goal was to make, like, a a digital recreation of myself that could continue writing songs after I die. And so it was basically it was basically a a sort of cascading, bunch of programs that ran that would take it had, like, three versions of me that were talking to each other all day long, trained on various, bits of my email and my messages. And these three versions of myself were talking to each other, and they would get prompts from news and from Twitter and from everywhere.
And as they chatted, there were summaries of these chats that would go and then become topics for songs that would then become lyrics, that would then become the actual songs themselves, then the songs would become videos. And for about, you know, six or seven months, this was going on. What I found with that is, like, the limits were that I still had to, like, maintain it in such a way that, like, things would break and, you know, I would have to, like, go in and fix things or my my actual dev who I have that I work with sometimes would help and, like, go in and actually fix things. But I think we're getting to the point, and I'm excited for the point where I can have the one LLM who's sort of in charge of this machine, and it could it could delegate to other LMs to go in anything that's wrong in the system.
It can understand the whole system and fix what's wrong and keep it going and have it like, that's sort of what's missing right now is, like, with a big project like that, like, the ability I haven't quite delved back into it enough to see if we have the ability to, like, have an AI that can that can hold the whole thing in its head and know what's going on and be able to, like, keep it going. Without That's my goal, really. Yeah.
Speaker 11 Right? Because, like, a lot of the AIs, it's like you you're like, maybe I'll do this, and then it ends up changing too much. Like, once you've gone down the path so much
Speaker 11 That, like, your one change can make a difference in the other areas. You know, I think we're not quite to that point, but we're getting there, especially with, like, these newer agents that are able to manage other coding agents, and, like, you know, different innovations that people are building. You know, like, shout out to Crypto Bushi or, you know, now changes handle to Bushi Builds. He's building, like, something called AFK where you can code by talking to your agent instead of typing so you can get away from your keyboard. Little things like this that end up turning into massive things because they're solving these problems that we're all just running into as we're basically fucking around finding out kind of thing. And so I love the thought process. I love the way that you're just, like, always experimenting. You have an idea. You're executing it.
That is also a skill set. Like, that's a massive skill set. So I'm curious. Like, do you have any words on that? Like, how do you come up with ideas? Is it just from just something that happens, or do you find that, like, you go on walks, ideas come to you? Like, again, I guess that touches back on, like, the inner voice, the inner, connection of giving these ideas to us. And And as you know too, sometimes we have an idea, we don't execute it, and then we see it out in the real world.
Speaker 11 You know, ideas are not our property. They come to us, they say, hey. Would you like to go on this journey? And sometimes we do, and sometimes we don't, and they move on. But, like, how do ideas come to you, and how how do you just execute? Do you think about it? Like, let's talk about that.
Speaker 8 I've actually thought about this a lot lately because I I I've been into this discourse about about one's inner one's actual inner voice and also inner eye. This idea that some people, when they close their eyes, they if you tell them to picture an apple, they picture not only the apple, but the entire scene. They can they they see an apple on a table, in a room, and they can describe every single the light in the they can describe everything about that all the way down to what I see, which is nothing. I I close my eyes and I literally I know what an apple looks like. I can describe an apple to you, but, like, I don't actually there's no actual vision to me for an apple.
Similarly, there's people for whom an inner voice is, like, actually a voice, a sound that they could describe, whether it's their voice or someone else's voice, speaking to them and their thoughts come in this sound. Whereas for me, I have zero sound. There's no sound. I've like, when I make some people, when they make music, they Brian Wilson, you know, heard the entirety of all the Beach Boys records in his head, and his entire job was to take what he was hearing in his head and trying to get everybody in the room to play it the way that he hears it. Whereas for me, I hear nothing. I have no sound in my head whatsoever. I have so I thought about this a lot of, like, where do those ideas come from? Like, how do I know when I'm having an idea?
Like, what is happening in that moment? And, you know, I guess, I don't know the answer entirely. It's just they just they just kind of appear. You know, they just kind of come. I'm just, like, daydreaming or I'm driving the car. Wherever I am, I'm I'm having a thought. I was thinking a lot about, like, where did the idea for for this project that I just released, the every 2,000,000 blocks project, this on chain music project, because, you know, that's just something that I've been obsessed with. The idea of on chain music is something I've been obsessed with since, you know, since autoglyphs, basically, since since those first came out in 2019. And, and then and then once on chain music started to happen as a thing, I just got so enamored with how people were doing that.
And then at some point, I learned about this How this idea formed, I guess, is that I was so enamored with the idea of on chain music for so long. And then I learned about this piece by John Cage, this piece called, as slow as possible. And it's just it's a piece for organ, and it's, like, eight sections, and some are repeating. And the whole idea is just you play it for as long as possible. That's that's the that's the goal of the score. And so there's this church in Germany that has an organ in it, and they decided to play it as long as possible. And they chose, like, six hundred and forty years as the length of the song, that being the when they started the song in 2001, six hundred and forty years ago was when the organ in the church had been built.
And so they decided that six hundred and forty years from then should be how long the song should be. So it's a song that has been that's that that will have been playing on an organ that will have been around for over a thousand years once the song is completed. And they changed the notes in this sort of ceremonial way. It's just sandbags sitting on these, like, keys to make the notes sound, and the notes are made by these giant tubes, basically, on top of it. And when they change the notes, the guy comes in and he's got white gloves on, and everybody's standing there. And he goes in and he puts the new note on the thing, and it makes a new sound, everybody claps. And it's like it's just, and that happens, like, every couple years. Like like, the next one is in is in this coming August.
So so I learned about that, and I think pretty much immediately, I was like, this idea popped in my head of, like, the idea of of what is it it's such a cool way to imagine a song living on long after we're all dead. And their method of doing that is beautiful. It's in this church that already has this long storied history in Germany. You know? Think of all the things that have happened in the last, you know, seven hundred years that this church has lived through. But then I was like, well, we have this thing that we hope is gonna last that long and longer. You know? This idea of Ethereum as this world computer that, exists in not one place. It exists in tens of thousands of places all over the world on people's computers.
And wouldn't it be cool to take this idea of a millennium standing song, a song that goes on for for generations, living on the actual blockchain on Ethereum, native to Ethereum and using all of the sort of, like, all of the language of Ethereum to create the song and have it come out of that. So that's where that that idea came from was this confluence of, like, my obsession with on chain music and then this learning about these sort of, like and then, of course, I I learned from that John Cage piece about all these other beautiful long term type songs. And so there's there's a whole tradition of of both of these things, of on chain music and long term songs that I wanted to sort of, like, bring together.
Speaker 11 So, like, the idea is they they unfold through you just kind of saying, wouldn't it be cool if I could do this thing? And then you end up, you know, experimenting with it. And then next thing you know, it's like, wait. I could do this. And, like, leveraging Ethereum, which if you're listening and you maybe understand what Ethereum is or maybe you know you've heard of Ethereum, it's in all like, as simple as I could put it. And you can feel free too to chime in on that. It's an always on computer that really allows us to create stuff that will run forever because the computer is always on. Like, you could think of it like the computer in your living room as a kid growing up or wherever it was in your house, the one computer that every house had, and, it's always on.
So you put a game on it, and then it's just gonna run. It's gonna run. It's gonna run. It's gonna run. That thinking about that, you know, thinking about it as an artist or a creator, or developer even or builder, it's really unique because it now gives us something that we didn't have, which is a place to set an experiment free, ultimately. And that experiment now cannot be deleted. It's it simply exists. So, like, on chain music is so unique because your vision of making something exist beyond you in your own specific way. Like, if you're making a song a day, this is a song that will play for now how many years? Thousands?
Speaker 8 Yeah. Well, right now, it's at let's see. Let's see what we're up to. Right now, it's at four hundred and ten years. So it'll end in the year 2436. If you wanna make it go longer, you can go to every2000000blocks.com, and every note you meant extends at one year. And I'm really it ends tomorrow and it ends in about twenty four hours. I'm really hoping we can get to at least a thousand years. That was sort of my goal is to is to have it extend out until the year 30, you know, 3036, basically. You know? And and the the funny thing is, of course, like, many things have to go right, and many things could go wrong, right, to to rob the world of of this world computer. Right? Like, we need electricity, and we need Internet are basically, like, the two things that that that need to exist.
Internet maybe maybe not is is you know, because the thing could keep going even if there's just one computer. It can it could still run the chain. It can still keep going. But in in thinking about that, you know, it's just it's a fun thing to think about, like, what would it take to keep these things going? And what would it take to keep the chain going are things that I just love to love to noodle in my head.
Speaker 11 I mean, I think that, you know, the Internet, it's it's like there's no stopping it at this point. Right? I mean and Ethereum is going to exist really as long as there's a computer validating the transactions, on the blockchain. And and it's really, like, super, super resistant to being taken down. Like, when you think about the future of money, which I guess kind of dips into other topics, but the future of money, like, we need something that the government can't just be like, okay. Shut it down. Like, well, you can't. You can't shut Ethereum down. Like, you could potentially shut down a more centralized blockchain if there's a way to co go to the center of it and be like, hey. This needs to end now. Otherwise, like, you are at risk of losing every single thing that exists in your life or whatever.
But, like, if you were to be, like, gun to your head, Vitalik, you turn this off now. You know, I need to speak to the manager of Ethereum. Like, you can't.
Speaker 8 There's there is none. Yeah. So,
Speaker 11 like, that's such a beautiful thing for creators, like, to think about. If it's always going to exist barring a world, like, event that explodes all of the computers that are validating these transactions on the blockchain, but in layman's terms, I mean, that's such a beautiful thing, and it allows us to tap into these different ways of thinking. So, like, this song that hopefully it does hit the, a thousand plus, it's at, like, 420 plus. The website is two every two million blocks dot com, or or what's the website?
Speaker 8 Yeah. Every2000000blocks.com. With a two word Spelled out. No. Spelled out too. Everything's spelled out.
Speaker 11 Every2000000blocks.com. Yeah. Super, super cool. And
Speaker 8 yeah. Yeah. And, you know, that's that's the thing about Ethereum. For me, that sets Ethereum apart, why I feel comfortable having made my home on Ethereum. I find other blockchains, you know, very interesting, and and I've I've made ordinals, I've I've released things on Solana as well. I think I think I think Ethereum has has a very credible case to be, you know, the the sort of credibly neutral thing that they are aiming to be. They're, you know, they're not complete it's not completely out of the woods. I think that there are, like, there are vectors from which, that could that is at risk and stuff. I think, like, USDC is one of them. Right? That, if USDC were somehow captured or something went wrong with it, that would that could that could and there needed to be a fork or, like if there needed to be a fork and USDC got to choose which fork it wanted, that could be difficult and challenging.
But overall, part of what makes me so so love Ethereum is the continued, despite everything, you know, despite all of the noise in crypto and the and the hacks and the gambling and the everything. Ethereum maintains its goal of being sort of the most flexible while maintaining that neutrality, among everything. And I I just I really appreciate appreciate that about it.
Speaker 11 Yeah. Me too. And I appreciate too how, like, it's created a community of people who all kinda see, like, the vision there that, you know, this is an always on computer. What can we do with it? What is like, you know, combining now the power of AI, combining the power of, really, like, the different innovations for what we can do with the blockchain, having people again shouting out did, being able to mint the largest work on chain at
Speaker 8 all. Incredible. Yeah.
Speaker 11 It's made through batching hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of transactions, stringing them together, and I'm probably butchering the way that it really the true technicals of it. But, like, who knows what the next step is beyond that? Like, what will people continue to evolve on chain? On chain music feels like we're barely at the tip of the iceberg.
Speaker 11 Yeah. Like, hasn't really had its glory moment besides like, I think of, like, you know, back in the day in 2021, like, Euler Beats.
Speaker 11 Yep. Like you know? And now we're seeing more on chain stuff happening, but what's your vision for the future of on chain music, and music on the blockchain in general, like, on Ethereum?
Speaker 8 Yeah. I mean, I think that, I think that, you know, our our friend produced by Dav, has has the vision, I think, in a lot of ways. I've been very inspired by by the stuff that he's that he's been doing. In fact, you know, every 2,000,000 blocks uses you know, he has this vision of basically, like, this this this interoperable library of of different things that live on chain on Ethereum that anyone can use and build on top of. And so, you know, to that end, there's this there's this, framework, this library called ToneJS, which I first learned about actually when when Unigrids came out, another 2021 Artblocks project. And they use ToneJS to to create the sounds of the of that of that piece. But, of course, ToneJS was this, like, external call that they had to make and and, you know, it's sort of sort of Art Block's way.
There's there's there's a bunch of stuff that has to happen off chain, in order to be able to make the thing on chain work. And Dav said, you know, bet. Let me see. I'm gonna I'm gonna take ToneJS, and I'm gonna put it on chain, and now it's there. And so every 2,000,000 blocks, now calls that contract and now uses his instance is the thing that he he put there for anyone to use to be able to create some of the sounds that that that happened in in the project. And I think that is the vision. The vision is that we put all these all these things on chain, and then and then again, as long as Ethereum exists, like, someday someday, ToneJS could, you know, link rot or whatever else. It could disappear from the Internet as a whole. You know, I think about all these things.
These 50,000,000, songs that went missing off of Myspace. Right? An entire generation of music gone just in an instant from from Myspace. That's a real thing that happens on the wider inner Internet. And if we put these things on chain as just in all the stuff that we're talking about, it's this distributed computer. It's on tens of thousands of computers all over the world. If this if this if this community remains healthy and we we maintain this vision, this stuff can really last. It can really go on forever and ever and ever.
Speaker 11 It's really mind boggling, you know, how history can just be lost so easily, especially with, like, the more traditional ways that we have preserved history in the past. And the fact that we can leverage the chain to really preserve stuff forever in the you know, barring that Ethereum doesn't get exploded in a giant nuclear event, you know, that every computer ends up getting deleted. I mean, we you know, nothing is truly, truly, truly, truly permanent, I guess, in that sense. But as permanent as it really could get is putting something on chain that then will forever be there for the rest of time, and the Internet is not the same way. So it's not like you put something on the Internet, and now it's there forever. It can easily be lost or the link could die or it could stop being hosted. Like, even a lot of the NFTs that we all know
Speaker 11 Are, some of them now, they start to rot or you start to see, like, okay. Why isn't this displaying anymore? Well, because there was a centralized server hosting it that no longer is being paid for. So, like, that's an interesting thing to think about. And I think that, like, there's not really much conversation around that. There obviously is among, you know, the people who are very deep in the realm of the Sure. But, like, I think over time, people will start to realize more and more, what else can we preserve? Like, maybe in the future, people's like, you know, property deeds will be preserved on the chain or, like, there's different things that will happen. Eventually, everything will kind of migrate on chain. In the world of finance, it's wouldn't it just be easier that everything is on chain and auditable?
I mean, like, it's a whole different paradigm, but I feel like we're living through that unique moment of people starting to realize what that is. And, again, that's really what this summit is all about is creating a platform to let people understand web three more, to let people understand how do I integrate this. Like, right now, there is no place in the world to go to say, alright. I wanna get involved in collecting art. Where do you even go? Make a MetaMask. Go to Manifold. Like, it's all scattered around. That's the problem that we're working to solve. And to get people understood on these types of topics and conversations, I think it's it's so important. And we're trending in a direction where people will be getting on chain just from the sake of whether they're getting involved with stablecoins, whether their bank starts letting them hold crypto, or, we're basically just generally trending in a direction where people are going to be leveraging these things more.
So it's just really fascinating to look at somebody like yourself who you're pushing the boundaries of leveraging the, existing use cases of AI, creating new ways to leverage AI, putting things on chain that people haven't even thought of, plus your knack for creativity on a daily basis and really sticking to that. Like, you know, people has been doing an artwork a day for however many years, twenty something years. I don't even
Speaker 8 know. He's, he's, I believe, in his nine I think he's, like, 0.5 ahead of me. So so nineteen years or something. Yeah.
Speaker 11 Dude, it's literally just one moment of, like, wait a second. Like, Jonathan Mann's been doing a song a day for how many years? Like and it's all, like now you're putting it on chain.
Speaker 8 It's all there. It's all there for for anyone to see. Yeah.
Speaker 11 Wild. And you do daily auctions as well?
Speaker 8 Oh, yeah. Yeah. For since since so the I had a I had I sold all the previous songs on on on December thirty first of of of twenty twenty one, like, the Yes. Bought the
Speaker 8 And and and that's and that's when I made all the money, and then that's when I lost it, essentially. But but since then since then, for well over a thousand days now, I've been doing a daily auction every day of of the song. And, you know, I'll say too, like, in terms of people in terms of, like, giving people my sort of base case for why I the thing that got me interested or one of the things that got me interested in making NFTs in the first place way back in the day is really this idea of, like, of what's happened to the Internet as a whole, sort of content contentification of the Internet and the the fact essentially that, like, anywhere else that you that I were to put my music and that I do put my music. It's on Spotify. It's on YouTube.
It's everywhere. All those other places, are at the heart of what they do. They're advertising platforms. That's what they are. They're, you know, like, Twitter, everywhere else, it's it they all exist to sell advertising, to make money for advertisers, and that's basically and so we're all working to to further that goal, the goal of advertising. And what I what drew me to the idea of NFTs was this idea that we could take these digital things that we're making and exchange them for money in a way that is completely separate from all of that. You know? When each day when someone is buying my NFT from my website, that is a direct relationship between me and them. There's no platform mediating that that thing between us. You know? And there's no advertising involved. There's no melt multimillion mega corporation, you know, involved in that transaction.
And that Kind of, like, just simple here I made something. Oh, let me buy it from you. It was never really possible before on the on the Internet. It always had to be mediated by somebody even if it's by Bandcamp or whoever, you know, now owned by a literal, like, private equity company. Like, it's just impossible to get away from that, except if you're on on Ethereum or, you know, or or Solana or or anywhere else where you're selling NFTs directly to other people. And I think that's a that's a good that's just for me, like, if if you for no other reason, that would be you know, if you're thinking about collecting or if you're thinking about making things as NFTs, that for me is, like, a a a real sort of core piece of why I do this.
Speaker 11 So interesting. So so interesting. Like, the times that we're living in now offer opportunities that never existed before. Like, the Internet was one thing. Right? And, like, taking the Internet like, you could think of Internet web two. Right? Web three. What even is web three? Like, you look up web three, you can't even really find a definition for it. That's how early that we are. But we all kind of know inherently what web three is, and it's what you just explained, in my opinion. It's the transactability that we now own. Like, we like, I can sell something directly to you. And that NFT, which, like, a lot of people might have just thought of NFT, they're like, wait. Are NFT still a thing? Or, isn't it that, like, monkey profile picture thing?
Like, we went through that phase, and now we're entering a phase where people will begin to get educated on what actually is possible in this world because we're all coming together to help people understand it. And the more experiments that happen, the more creativity that happens, the more people that see, wait a second. What did he just do? Now I wanna try something like that. It's a ripple effect that exists far beyond that we can ever imagine. So it's just so cool to have conversations like this. Massive respect for you, man. Thank you. Like, I love that you have such an a commitment to your work ethic and that it's just it's it's awesome to witness, honestly. I wanna ask you one last question as we do wrap up.
What's one thing you want to if you're speaking to someone watching right now, which there's 639 people from all over the world watching right now, What is one thing you'd wanna say to someone getting started in this space that we call web three? What would you want to tell them?
Speaker 8 I would take them very gently by the hand and look deeply into their eyes and say, very careful. It you know, we've only talked about good things. You know? We've only talked about the good things. It's it is such a hard space to be in sometimes. You know? And I would be it's not for the faint of heart, you know, this space. I think that, like, what you're doing and I think what I think the good work that that that you're doing and a lot of people are trying to do in trying to demystify and trying to show where the sort of signal is among the noise is you know, in some ways, it's, like, the most important thing to to the longevity of of any kind of, like, art on here. You know?
I can remember very clearly being at the second rare a rare rare AF art festival, in New York in 2019, where there was 50 of us, and the question was, like, is anyone ever gonna care? That was the question that any that we were all asking. It's like, is anyone ever gonna care? And in a lot of ways, it feels like that again. It feels like that now. You know? The the questions of, are there enough collectors? That was the same question we were asking them. There's too many people making. There's not enough people buying. We now have the we now have the the benefit of having gone through a time when people did care. But but in a lot of ways, you know, it got bungled or whatever by by by there being more noise than signal in in a lot of ways.
And so, you know, I think the task now for us bringing people in is to, like, really shield them and prepare them and kind of, like, you know, give them give them the tools they need to deal with the fuckery that is in the space. You know? That's the hardest part of of anyone coming to me and asking me, like, how do I get NFTs? It's like I was like, okay. Well, this is we now we gotta have this conversation about, you know, about gambling and about degens and about floor prices and about, you know, all this stuff that that, most people just don't wanna think about, and and and and why should they? Yeah. That that that that's I
Speaker 11 mean, there's a lot of reasons, I think. But at the same time, you know, I totally understand exactly what you're saying. Right? You know, it's not the first thing maybe that you're you know? And I really respect that answer. I think that, you know, there's one way of looking at it where it's like all the positive things, but, like, there's also the importance of understanding, like, what you're actually doing. And, like, I asked wannabe in the last talk. It's like, well, you know, we talk a lot about, like, the positive of, like, making money and, like, crushing it. What happens when you lose money? Like, what happens when you bet everything? Because you've made so many wins, you feel invincible, and then you lose it all. That happens. I mean, that's happened to me before. I mean, I'm sure it's happened like you explained with your song, which I could still hear in my head.
It's a good sign. It it's such a good one. That happens a lot with the music that I hear from you too, by the way. Get set in my head. But we will wrap this one now that we're gonna head into the next one. We've got everyone backstage for the next talk. I really appreciate your time, man. Thank you so much for coming in and for just discussing so much. I wanna listen back to this one and really take, everything from it again because, like I said, tons of respect for you. Keep going down that path, and may the creative wisdom continue to flow. Much love, man.
Speaker 8 I appreciate it, man. Thank you so much. Thanks for putting this on. This has been really fun to talk, and, also, it's been a blast to listen to it as well.
Speaker 11 Thanks, man. I'll see you soon.
Speaker 11 Wow. That that's fantastic. That's so much fun. What a guy. We're gonna take a quick sixty second break, and then we're gonna jump into our next talk. I see everyone is backstage, so, we're gonna get ready for that. The next talk is onboarding and empowering new voices in CryptoArt, which I'm super excited about. Deltasauce, Brian Brinkman, and Luciana Guerra are joining us. So, let's take a quick, quick break, and then
Speaker 10 we will jump right into it.
Speaker 11 Hopefully, everybody can hear me. Let's bring up everybody. There we go. Nice. Alright. Can you guys hear me?
Speaker 11 Fantastic. Welcome, Luciana, and welcome back, Delta Sauce and Brian. I appreciate you guys being here. So this talk is called onboarding and empowering new voices in crypto art. So I think this is one of the most important talks of the day because that's what this whole entire summit is really designed to be about is onboarding and empowering people to actually become a part of this space that we all love. Why are we all here? Why are we doing this day after day? Because we love it, ultimately. Like, I think a lot of people left their, like, full time thing in order to be a part of this space at some point, and maybe they have to get another full time thing through the ups and downs or however. But it's because we all love it. And I think, a while ago, I asked myself, what would I want to do if money didn't matter?
And it would literally be exactly this, like being a part of web three, making art, you know, d jamming every once in a while into some cool thing. So I'm really excited to talk with this on this topic with you guys. Three people I have tons of respect for. So we can just go ahead and dive in, and we'll do this. We'll kind of I'll moderate the talk with you. We'll go back and forth, but it's still very free and conversational, and you can, you know, jump in really at any moment. But on the topic, onboarding and empowering new voices in crypto art. Let's start with Luciana. Welcome, first of all. Thank you for being here. And, I wanna ask you, like, as an artist yourself, by the way, I love your work and the dam, it proudly stewards your work.
What do you think in this current market that we're in is the biggest key to letting new people know about web three or, like, new artists that are out there that are brilliant. How do they get involved? Like, how do we attract them into this space to give them an opportunity to make something on chain or, just overall to get involved? Oh, wait. Can you guys hear it? That might be my fault. Let me see. Can you guys hear Luciano?
Speaker 11 Okay. One second here. I might be able to do something on my end. She's gonna rejoin, it looks like. But we we'll, continue forward. I'm sure she'll get that sorted. And, basically, the question being, what can we do to bring people into this space on the creative side? Right now, there's kind of a fragmented way of joining the space. You don't really know where to go. But in your opinion, like, how do we onboard new people? And we can start with Ryan.
Brian Oh, man. That's a tough question. So how do we onboard new people? Right. We have to support small artists. I mean, the thing that probably got almost all of us hooked was our first sale. And that wasn't, like, you know, a big sale. I think mine sold for, like, a $100 or something. And but that was enough to be like, oh, there's a market for my art here. And what happened since that point is there's just a lot of roadblocks along the way. Platforms you have to get onboarded onto and, you know, all these systems. But, you know, there's still plenty of places whether it's on Tezos or Rodeo or any of these, like, kind of cheap entry points. I think that's usually the best way, but, you know, I think the mistakes that artists make I sometimes go back and forth on this because sometimes artists can join the space and make a lot of mistakes.
Like myself. Like, I didn't make a contract to mint all my work in at the at the start. Like, there's probably a better educational portal entrance. So, like, artists are, like, built with, like, a ledger and all this other stuff and, like, kind of go into the space in a secure, smart way and kind of build themselves out correctly. But in reality, most of the time, people are gonna come in and screw up and try things, and some of it will work and some of it won't work. And, you know, I think that that's also kind of the fun of it. I'm curious what Delta thinks because he kinda came in after the the 2021 boom when there was, I think, manifold and there was a little bit more, like, structure to work within?
Speaker 1 For well, for me, I I would say, like, you know, in terms of onboarding people and getting people involved, it's like, meet them where they're at because, like, there is a lot of, like, tech based knowledge that you have to be understanding when when entering the space. Like, I made the same mistake as Brian did when it comes to, like, not putting stuff on my own contracts when I first entered the space. You know? I don't even think off the top of my head that Manifold supported Polygon. It's like, I couldn't afford to mint on ETH. So I had to mint on the OpenSea Polygon contract to be able to just afford to mint. And then I found out about Tezos, and even then, I I, you know, I didn't mint on my own personal contract when it comes to Tezos.
So there's a lot of, like, learning experiences that you have to have as an artist here. I And think that's okay to make mistakes. I think, you know, making mistakes is just this natural progression over time, and you're gonna learn from the mistakes and and, you know, and fix that moving forward. But, like, I I feel like there is, you know, a need for a deeper education for new people coming into the space. And also setting expectations because I feel like, you know, a lot of us came into the space when, you know, it was blowing up, when it was a bull market, when everyone was selling, you know. And we have these overextended expectations. So, like, bringing into, you know, new entrants in the space with these, like, realistic expectations of how it operates and how to grow here.
And, also, I I think, you know, another big importance that, you know, that really benefited me early on is, like, I was invited to the table. I had people wanting me to come mint stuff. You know? Like, I had people openly DMing me and, like, teaching me how to bridge and teaching me all the stuff that I needed to figure out because I was on Polygon.
Speaker 1 So for me, it's just like inviting artists to the table and and being there to help them in a way. Having that community vibe where you help uplift others, I think, is, like, the key thing to bring new entrants into the space.
Speaker 0 Can you hear me, guys, now? Sorry.
Speaker 1 Yeah. We can. Yes. We
Speaker 0 can. Here. Thank you. It's it's great hearing you. I made a lot of mistakes, like like you were saying, Delta, when I started. I I joined here on October 21 when there there were a big hype, and I guess it was one of the best moments on on Web three. And I also made a lot of mistake because I didn't understand a lot of things here on space, how things work here. Sorry that my English is not the best, but I I am trying. It's good. Thank you. I want to talk about some kind of collectives that are working now on education and onboarding. There are a collective in here in Argentina called NeutroArts, which is focused on onboarding and educating artists before they start their journey on web free. And what they offer is workshop which lasts for a month, I guess.
And you have, like, three or four meetings where they'll teach you everything you need to know about contracts, about blockchains, where to mint, how are three I mean, the basics, not everything. But, I guess when you're starting when you want to start to to understand how things work on Web three because it's very different from from traditional art. I come I come from traditional art, and it's very, very different how things work here. Some things are are the same, but others are very different. So I think this kind of of project are very important, like Neutro. And we have another, which is called Casa Gizmet that also is focused on onboarding and educating artists on space by teaching people that want to show and work free the main the main things that they have to understand before starting their journey here.
So I think this kind of project has very important here, and we have to focus on creating this kind of collectives worldwide because when you start, there is a lot of things that you you don't know. I made a lot of mistakes, but a lot. In four years, I guess I made all the mistake I could ever met make. And it's very important if you have a place where you can ask things, people that really understand how things were because they have been here for for a long time and can teach others their their experience here.
Speaker 11 Very interesting point on, like, having some sort of workshop that people can go through, sign up for. This is an initiative that internally we've discussed at the Digital Asset Museum, as part of this educational platform that we're developing here, giving people a way to sign up from anywhere in the world to learn step by step, like, week by week, Almost in, like, you know, in the web two worlds, I've done these, like, boot camps with people in the digital marketing world. Similar to that, like, you know, week one, get your wallet and understand, like, what is your brand? What is your name as an artist? What like, you can literally take people step by step by step through the process. I love that idea, and I love that that is happening around the world already, at least in Argentina. Argentina. Correct? That was nice. Yes.
What do you guys think about that? Like, Delta and Brian, like, I know, Brian, you were part of the in MARFA, some really cool stuff that I feel like would onboard people, like the prompt me if you can by Aaron Blaise Dell. Congrats on winning that, by the way. Oh,
Speaker 11 What what do you think about that? Like, workshops and different ways to engage people like that?
Brian Yeah. I mean, that was a great way of kind of showing people what you can do with Juno by transient. I I should give a shout out to Haver who has a project called artist commons, what I think is artistcommons.art, which is a year long workshop to onboard artists into the space. So there are there's a there's a number of those types of things, but the question is how do you grab artists? How do how do artists that are, like, interested in space find those? I think that's the challenge. But Mhmm. Yeah. I think in real life events are a great way to do it, whether it's kind of attaching it to other artist fairs like Basil Marfa, I feel like everybody that was at Marfa is already in the space. So I don't know if that's necessarily, like, a great on border, but it was certainly a good way to, like, show off that technology.
And I do think we are going to see a lot of new artists into the space that are prompt based artists, and that will be you know, anybody can be an artist at this point. It's like how but how do you build your brand around being an artist correctly that you can actually monetize and make a career out of it? And so that'll that'll be the next, like, wave. I mean, we're already seeing it to a large degree, but maybe it's like,
Brian know, tapping into that AI aspect to help train people using AI.
Speaker 11 Very interesting question too on, like, how do you attract more artists into web three? How do you find these people that are interested in doing that, assuming that all the tools exist? Say that there is the course, there is the platform. I love the idea of artist comments. I saw it on the feed. I did not know it was a yearlong, course, or is it virtual, or is it in person? Do you know whether how does that work? That's awesome.
Brian I believe I believe it's virtual.
Speaker 11 But That's fantastic. We so, like, the question then being, like, how do you guys think that we attract more people in and then empower them to actually have success?
Brian Maybe with grants? I don't know. I think, you know, getting people time to make. Mhmm.
Speaker 0 Yeah. I think grants are are a very good opportunity for onboarding artist. I I had a the chance to participate on AWAC's residency. They have a grant of $5,000 last year, and a lot of people that weren't on web free joined to to that residency. Unfortunately, it's not anymore, but it was a a great initiative. There are some some things like that. Also, I think our residencies, like the the one in Rio, I think, Brian, you were here this year. I was last year there on on Brazil. It was a a great opportunity because the Salki and Eric also invite artists that are not on Web three. This is a chance to experiment with artists that are working on with with Web three or on Web three, work with them and understand better how things work there for those that are newly.
Brian Totally. Yeah. Shout out to Sokie and Eric on the Ria residency, also the Bali residency by Povadine.
Brian AOTM has a residency. Those are all really great. And, yeah, occasionally, they bring some people from outside the space. But a lot of times, they tend to favor, like, emerging artists that have already kind of dabbled.
Speaker 11 Very true. Delta sauce, you were No. I I I I
Speaker 1 I, you know, I I agree with all the grants and all these initiatives. I think that's a key aspect. But, also, like, having public facing events, I think, is another way to, like, stir up interest, like, that are maybe in a more traditional gallery setting
Speaker 1 having, you know, digital art on display and, you know, you know, engaging with, you know, potential people in that area. I I've had the best talks with people outside the space at gallery events, to be honest. Because, like, they are coming in with this sort of, like, misconception of, like, what NFTs are and just being able to explain and sort of, like, going at it in a way where it's not like I'm not using these heavy words that me and Brian and all of us here understand and know. Like, we know what in an FTB you
Ben know, we know all the tech behind and all that.
Speaker 1 Being able to come and and have these discussions and bring the terminology down to their level, I think, is very important. So, like, having more public facing events where it's not just people that are in the space going to and, like, inviting the public, I think, is another way to, like, stir up interest in what we're doing here. Yeah.
Brian I think looking at the space and how it's, kind of projecting itself, I think one mistake we make is we keep putting ourselves into these fine art traditional fairs, which are attracting collectors. They're not attracting the artists necessarily. Where I think if we wanted to onboard artists, we should be going to, like, Comic Cons and, like, comic fairs and zine festivals and, like, where the people that are already, like, tech savvy artists are already selling kind of digital work printed. That's kind of the core audience that we keep missing for some reason instead of, you know, going after, you know, the shepherd fairies of the world and stuff like that.
Speaker 11 I honestly agree. I think it's you know, we have to try things. Right? For example, zero ten, that's massive. I think it's massive in that it got exposure and eyes on digital art. Now does that onboard new artists? Well, probably not really, but what it does do is it creates more awareness around this medium and also around that you can do some pretty cool things. I think, though, your point on, like, going to the place where creators are and where creatives are hanging out, it's like it's not really, like, hey. Have you heard of the good word of NFTs kind of thing? But, like, it's more about, like, what are people already actively trying to achieve? And, like, there's a lot of people I know that I I go to a coffee shop every day nearby here, and I pick up some tea in the morning and, like, hang out there sometimes.
And I just see people drawing and pretty often. And sometimes I see such talented people, and they're like, yeah. Like, I would love to be an artist, but I have no idea how I would get started, or I have no idea. Like so it's like, yeah. We can go to these places, but what if there was a way that we could, like, get in front of them where they're already hanging out? So it's like I think it's almost about taking, and I'm curious on everyone's take on this, but taking, like, almost a marketing approach of, like, how does a business get new clients? They end up advertising or they put their product in front of people and, where those people are already hanging out, which is social media.
So it's kind of, like, an interesting thing about, like, it's not just to just getting a product in front of somebody, but I think it's about creating a culture that people want to be a part of. Like, in 2021, how many new artists were created from the rise of NFTs? People saw, like, oh, I could become an artist too, and, like, I like, people minted crazy collections. Like, someone minted an object a 100 objects from around their home and turned it into a thousand piece collection and made, like, a bunch of money from it or whatever, and these stories kind of spread. But, like, I'm curious for you guys on what would empower people to want to be an artist. Like or what would empower people to want to start leveraging tools within the realm that we all know, and what would make them feel included?
You know? We could start with Brian. Curious what you think on that.
Brian Yeah. I think that marketing, the idea of, hey. Beeple sold $69,000,000. You're like, this this this 14 year old artist made a million dollars on low like, those stories spread quick, and they're effective, but they're effect they're not effective at bringing the right kind of artists. It brings in the kind of artists that are trying to make a quick buck and bounce. And so then the question is, what is the right reward system that attracts the right type of artists? And is it, you know, touting sustainable careers? Is it touting it's hard you know, how do you do it without money as the main driver? It's how you know, this person was in Christie's. This person was in Art Basel. I think that's an interesting goal. But I think it's also just, like, kind of going and looking at these artists that are already on Patreon or Kickstarter and all these other things and saying, hey.
You can do that, but you can do it this way and have a lot more autonomy over your presence. And I think that might be a better incentive to, like, meet people that are already kinda halfway into this digital economy, but just not doing it on the blockchain. Say, well, if you do it on the blockchain, then you can actually sell the art versus just selling access to your PSDs or so you know? I think there's something interesting there. But on a marketing front, we have to fight against many years of anti NFT rhetoric that really spread heavily through the audience that we're trying to win, which, you know, is, like, twenty to thirty something year old artists. They you know, the same people that are hating AI. You know, I think there's a huge issue with art being correlated to PFPs and NFTs and fraud and scams.
And, you know, and there's there's a level of truth to it. I mean, if you become an artist in the space, you become a target to a lot of things. And so you have to kind of find the right type of person that wants to join that can navigate the craziness of the space. It's not for everyone. And I think we make a mistake when we try to cast a blanket towards everyone because, you know, only a percentage of people will last more than a few months or a few years.
Speaker 11 Very interesting points. Luciana, what do you think?
Speaker 0 It's difficult because as Brian was saying, not all no. It's not for for all people or for all artists in this space. It's very difficult to understand and to to have the the patience to understand and to to wait things happen. So and it's difficult as we were talking before how to understand, how how you can move here. Things are not always the same. There are ups. There are downs. I think when I joined on 2021 was the best moment, and things then were changing and still are changing. So I think I am going to to speak about the place I live because it it's the the community I I know the most. Artists here find on web free a way to to spread their their their voices and their art. Of course, everything is related also with economical incomes, with earning some some money or some crypto with your art because it's our job.
But leaving this in in one side, it's important, the possibility on what free to reach other voices. And Latin American people have found a place on what free for that kind of things, especially in the difficult moments Latin American is living right now. So the the possibility to earn something with digital art made a lot of artists, traditional artists too, because I have onboarded a lot of friends to try to start working here, to start trying new things or or trying the art or or experimenting with digital art. And in general, because it's not for everyone, as Brian said, in general, there there were very good experience, and a lots of people is working with that. Besides the the incomes are not huge, it's another income that an artist can have besides traditional art, for example.
I'm I'm talking about traditional art because it's the place where I where I come from and where I know most people. But it's what I see from my country and Latin American in general. I don't know if it works the same in in USA or in Europe. I I don't know that.
Speaker 11 Well, like, how do we then asking this question. In the traditional art world in the past, how did people get onboarded into, even if that's the right word, into making what we would consider traditional art? Like, was that a thing that people considered? Were people sitting around saying, like, how do we make more artists? Like, what about that?
Brian Well, I mean, I think the traditional route was you go take a graduate course at some accredited university that's known for, like, placing artists into the gallery system. You know? It was a very gated structure. I think that's why this space opened that up in a way that we're still kind of figuring out, and there's a push and pull of, like, how gated we want to be. But, yeah, I don't I you know, I was never in a position where I could enter that New York gallery scene because I didn't have a graduate degree. You know?
Speaker 11 Very interesting. Very interesting. Delta sauce, what do you think?
Speaker 1 I I I completely agree. I I'm in the same boat as, you know, Brian over here, especially with the medium of choice for me. Like, it is rough out there for anyone that is using AI in their process or, you know, building out our work with AI. So, like, I it's it's it's that whole, you know, go to college, get a degree, and then get placed in sort of, like, the the gallery, you know, circuit and then move up to fuselms and institutes if your art was considered good enough. Like, it's that whole, you know, the whole thing I couldn't afford college. Like, I I, you know, I I never went. I was just a high school graduate, to be honest, and I'm finding my way in this world of art. So that know that there is this option that, you know, is available to anyone and the door's wide open.
So why not, you know, take the chance? It's just about, like, getting people interested in sort of shaking off those negative narratives that, you know, have colored us when it comes to, like, NFTs, them being scams, frauds, all this this stuff and, like, you know, making people understand that, like, the technology here
Speaker 1 good. Like, it's good, you know, and to get people interested because, like and another big thing that I wanted to bring up as well, if you if you don't mind me just saying real quick. I also think that, you know, especially in the space, like, there is a language barrier per se when it comes to, like, educating people. Because a lot of, like, the material to educate people is in English mainly. A lot of the conversations happening on Twitter are in English. So, like, there is that language barrier that I feel, you know, sort of hurts international, like, you know, people from getting into the space to a certain degree because, like like, English isn't your main language. You're have trouble navigating the space to a certain degree. So, like, that's another thing that I think, you know, can be worked on.
And and that's another thing that's being worked on with with technology and how it's being innovated, you know, like, auto translate and all this stuff is happening. But, like, it's something that we can always work to strive to because, like, I I I bet there's, like, this large audience of, like, artists that are outside of The United States and Europe that want to be involved but are just struggling because of, like, the language barrier.
Speaker 11 Interesting. Luciana, what do you think on that? Do you think that because there there seems to be a budding scene of artists in Argentina, in Brazil, obviously, in all countries in the world. But, specifically, in those two countries, I've seen a lot of the artists on my feed that I truly enjoy. I learned that they're from Argentina or Brazil, it feels. And, you know, it's I'm not saying every single person, but I've noticed that. And I feel as though there's a really beautiful culture there. And I'm just curious at, like, the origins of these types of things and kind of, you know, the way that I learn is just, like, kind of tracing things back and, thinking them through. Like, how do you feel about that?
Do you feel like there's a language barrier in web three where, like, people are kind of turned away because there's not really any tutorial or any, guidance for people who are speaking languages other than English as a primary language?
Speaker 0 Yeah. I agree with with you, with yeah, and with Delta that language is a barrier for a lot of artists. As you may hear me, my English is not the best, but I'm trying. But a lot of people doesn't have the possibility even to talk. Maybe they understand, but it's it's very difficult to express yourself when you don't have all all the the location of of another foreign language. So maybe there are lots of things you can do or you can say about your art, but you don't have the way to express it in English. So for those who don't Speak English. Maybe they are outside the space a little. But now we have a lot of with AI, we have a lot of tools that you can we can use to to translate in in that in the same time that people speaking and things like that, but it's not the same as speaking the the English language. But, yeah, it's a it's a very it's a bar how do you say? Bar barrier.
Speaker 0 Yeah. Yeah. Barrier. And regarding I was hearing what Delta was saying about education. I I feel you. I I understand here. University is free. We don't have to pay for for university. It's we are lucky in this way, and maybe that's why we have a lot of artists that have gone to university and have an art degree because it's free. And I don't know in Brazil. I think in Brazil, it's not. I think only in in South America, it's Uruguay and and Argentina where we have a free education. We don't have to pay for that. But, yeah, there is a a lot a big community. And also, I want to to say that there are lots of artists from Latin America that are open that are open to to work free due economical situation.
We are used to to deal with horrible economical situation in countries where things change a lot, where we have a lot of inflation. And the only way, for example, at least what what worked for me, despite I'm in an art gallery, I have been there for a while, was op be open to to web free and found opportunities here. And a lot of people are is doing the same because at least another income, it's a lot for us. So that's maybe we have bigger communities than other countries.
Speaker 11 Very interesting. So it's like I think that, you know, the language barrier is something that definitely could be, like, opened up to where more people can understand. Like, I I think, like, the main source of it being that if there was a place that people knew that they could go to get quality education, like, literally university level education, but regarding web three, and it really is from people who have lived it. Like, that's the mission that we're on here with the web three summit and with the platform we're building. I feel like it's a step in the right direction to continue experimenting that way. Residencies, like we discussed earlier in this talk, residencies are a way to bring people in. But a lot of the times, we see that they're the existing emerging artists that end up getting into these residencies.
How do we bring in new people, people that are curious about the talents that they have to apply them? And that that's where I feel like an at your own pace self education is massive. And if we can bust that open through having not just English, but also translations of that material using AI to allow people from all different languages. Like, this is only, like, technology that we're just now getting where we can really, like, translate a talk like this literally into another language, not just over text, but actually through voice, through using AI. These are things that I think can open up a lot of doors. But I think that, overall, like, I'm curious to pose this question. How do we make artists feel welcomed in this space? Because I think, you know, you see awesome things happening.
There's, like, people doing this, and then there's, like you know, you can insert popular artist name here. And people see that, but they feel like, wow. That's an amazing cool group that I'm not in. And I wonder, like, how do we break down those barriers? How do we make artists feel welcomed? Like, it is the topic of inclusion, but, like, it's more than just including everyone. It's about making people feel like they're part of a family. And what responsibility do the leading voices of our space have, and where does that responsibility end in regards to this as well? I'm curious, Brian, if we'll start with you, like, what do you think about that?
Brian I think it's tough. I mean, as I would love to handhold everyone, but, obviously, I can't. And so I look at how can how can someone have a good experience? We kinda touched on it in our talk earlier. It's about grouping incoming artists into a cohort where they can build their own little click and grow together. And maybe there is, like, some sort of leader of that, but it doesn't have to be, like, Beeple or something. But, like, there is something to how do you find your tribe. Because once you find that, that's when the space becomes more welcoming. It becomes easier to ask questions. It becomes easier to share each other's work and give feedback. But finding that group is tough. When I joined the space, it was tough. I've joined Discords and reached out to people and made connections one on one.
Sometimes platforms, you know, they would, like, onboard groups at once, and maybe that would help. But I think that's really what it comes down to. It's not people like us that have been in the space long enough can offer advice, but our experience joining is vastly different from the experience of an artist joining now. And so there is a limitation to our ability to relate on that level effectively. And so, you know, I've I've often I made a video that was, like, fifteen minutes onboarding for artists, and I share that as much as I can. But even that is, like, getting more and more out of date because it's from three years ago. And what you know, the how you release art has changed. And so, really, it's like, how do we create a system that kind of funnels incoming people into an area where they can connect and help each other grow?
Because they're gonna be the next wave, And then they'll make them you know, they're they're constantly waves of success of new artists because new artists are inherently the most exciting to collect because they have the most potential from a collector standpoint. And so I just look at that, and I go, okay. Well, maybe maybe it's artist comments. Maybe it's maybe it's residencies, but we have to figure out how to group these emerging incoming artists together in a way that benefits them.
Speaker 11 Wow. Yeah. That's a really, really awesome point. What do you think on that, Luciana?
Speaker 0 It's difficult. Yeah. I think I I agree with with Brian that the point is help artists to to find the right place, their tribe, and maybe a cohort or an open call with the residents, you know, things like that. Artist programs like the one that that Brian mentioned are the the places that can help artists to to understand that points and find the people that that they are alike and build their their community because I think it's the most important. Find your community, the people that are like you, the people you can trust, artists, collectors, creators, supporters, everything. It's it's difficult to find the right people that you feel comfortable with. You can talk. You can share things, concerns. I I think everything is about finding the the right community for you. And it's it's not the same for all of our all of us.
We are we all belong to different places, maybe all the same, but but with different things. So it's I I think, basically, it's it's you need to find that place, that community, and maybe a a cohort or maybe a residency or or an artist program can help artists to find that that place, or or we can learn more about that. I don't know if it makes sense to you.
Speaker 11 Absolutely. No. I mean, like, the point of bringing a group together, this is how people have learned for hundreds of years. Like, look at university. You have a class of twenty twenty, whatever, class of 2025, like, class of 2026, and these groups learn together. They graduate together. And it's almost about, like, how do we build a university for web three, ultimately? Like, kind of getting back to what I was saying on college level education, but available to everyone and available to self educate yourself, but also to work among others and to build your own camaraderie among that cohort. I think that's really key, and it kind of self organizes the rest of these issues, if you would call them that, or the problems that we're looking to tackle. How do we make people feel empowered? How do we onboard the next wave into web three?
And, I mean, Brian, you have a really amazing point with, like, we want to bring people together in a cohort. Because then, you know, you don't have, like, the people at university from class of 2021, for example. Right, class of 2021, like, bringing in the next class of 2026, and, like, they're not, like, the same. Like, maybe they hang out and they relate with each other and they connect, but, like, class of 2026 is gonna be their own class and their own age group and their own friends. So it's really unique to think about. Like, we're at a point right now and and, again, back to the question initially, like, what is the responsibility of the leading voices in the space? Where does it start? Where does it end?
Well, I think a really good start is being doing things like this, like, spending time in your day, you know, hours of your day today, Brian and Delta and Luciana, spending time here and discussing this stuff in a public forum, creating an interface for someone to plug into. And I think where it ends is ultimately at the point of Brian where you're mentioning, like, creating the cohort, but now it needs to self organize and grow. Like, of course, you would wanna hold the hands of every single person, but it's just not possible or feasible. So, like, looking back at these ways that universities have grown, over the years, I feel like we can learn a lot. And, Delta, I'm curious. You always have a really level take. What do you think about that? Like, how does that feel to you?
What do you like what pops up in your head when we bring that topic up like that?
Speaker 1 So for me, when I enter this space, I entered at a time where, like, everyone was figuring out, like, AIR and how to, like, make it and all the technical
Speaker 1 on it. But I will I will honestly say 90% of those people are gone. 90% of the people that I enter the space in that I used to talk daily to are just gone. So, like, you know, you have to I I completely agree with Brian's take on, like, having these cohorts of, like, artists that enter at the same time and, like, are, you know, just basically, you know, learning about the space and how to operate and whatnot. But I also would say, like, come at it from the single of, like, you know, sometimes all those people leave, and it's just you. Like, you enter with, like, 20 people, and it's just like you and two others that ended up staying long term. And I think for those people that are sort of without a tribe, we have to be open door to them and let them into our tribes if they ever want to to to come in and join us.
Like, join our communities. Because I think that's, like, the key aspect for the space is, like, having these sort of open doors where people can join in your community and not be isolated because it's hard without a tribe here in the space. Like, it's the one thing that I recommend anyone that enters the space. Find a community to be involved in. Find people that you can chat with. You know? I I the whole social aspect of web three is the most important in my opinion, you know, besides, you know, the artwork and all this other stuff. It's like, you want to be a part of something. You want to feel like you're a part of something. So, like, I tell people, like, find your tribe here, but also, you know you know, the people that are well established here, we have to, like, have this community with a door open policy.
Like, that's what I totally believe in. It's just, like, having this sort of, like, way for people to enter into my community with and and not necessarily have to buy art to be in my community. Like, I try to, like, be very open when it
Speaker 1 you know, know, allowing people into my community regardless if they buy art or not. Because I I feel like that's one of the reasons why I stuck around in this space, and that's one of the reasons why I joined the space.
Speaker 11 Wow. That really gets me thinking a lot on, like again, back to the point of, like and the point of this is a big group, and I'm not in it kind of vibe. And, of course, that exists, you know, virtually everywhere. Right? But I'm curious, like, if you've ever felt that in this space, because I know I have for sure. And, like, I think everybody's probably felt a flavor of that. And, again, it is existent everywhere, and I don't think you could ever eradicate that energy completely. But I think it's worth discussing, like, why you know, how do we lower the barriers there? How do we make people feel more welcome to where it's like, I can join in with them too? Like, you're saying an open door type policy. Well, it's not just a, okay. Hopefully, I'm included in this list.
Like, you know, this person's making a list, and I'm not on it. This person's got a group of people who are all successful, and I'm not in it. And it drives people out. Right? But, like, what can we do to not only mitigate against that, but to also, like, encourage people to feel like, no. I can be empowered. Because the opposite of that is actually being empowered. The opposite of, hey. There's a big group of success, and I'm not in it, is I'm empowered to, like, be magnetized towards that group to actually succeed too. What do you guys think about that, Luciana? Like, how do you feel about that?
Speaker 0 Well, I must say that I have been always been receive a lot of help since I joined the space. All people were were the kindest more in in real life and and in traditional art. I received a lot of help, a lot of opportunities, and I I never felt I I wasn't part of anything on the contrary. And I have a belief, and it's it's I need to give back the same that I have received or more. That's my policy here, to help as much people as I can in the in the way I can now, but to educate, to mentorship, to give advice, not financial, but educational advice to all people that wants to to ask me anything. That's my policy because I really always I I always felt I I was part of everything. I never felt I wasn't part of any group or I don't know. I receive a lot of opportunities from different sides. So that's my belief.
Speaker 11 Makes sense. Yeah. Totally. What do you think, Brian? Do you agree or disagree with, like, kind of the premise of what I'm saying, or, like, how do you feel?
Brian What re rephrase your premise.
Speaker 11 Yeah. Well, yeah, the premise is essentially, like, the energy of the web three space where it's like, this is a big group of people that are doing some stuff, and I'm not in it.
Brian Yeah. I think there's always gonna be stuff that you're not in because no. No. I mean, I think when you join the space, we all kind of create a checklist box of goals. Some of those goals don't even exist anymore because the platforms are gone. But I think, you know, early on, your goals as an artist are like, I wanna get on super rare. I wanna be in Sotheby's. I wanna be in Chrissy's. I wanna be in a museum. And, like, you keep creating higher goals that are harder and harder to get through. I would say, you know, a lot of artists right now, their goal is fellowship because that's the platform that's making the most sales right now. And that's a hard goal to get on because they only have so much space. You know? That used to be nifty gateway in 2021.
I think there's always gonna be this drive to achieve. And I think it's important for artists to have goals. You know? That way when you do reach them, you can feel a sense of accomplishment. But it's also just you know, some of those goals sound nicer in theory than the reality of the matter. Like, you know, a lot of us will go, I wanna be in an auction house. And then you go to the auction house, you're like, oh, that's cool, but it's not life changing. It's it it's something nice for the resume. And I think the goal in this is always just to I think the goal my goal as an artist, why I made this my career full time, is because when you go to art school like I did or any anybody who wants to be an artist, having full autonomy creatively to create art is the goal.
And to be able to make a living off that is the goal. Any of these other things are, like, little checkboxes that might help towards that goal, but it's not the base goal, which is freedom to create. And I think joining the space and creating achieves that right off the bat, then finding a way to make it sustainable. I mean, I think all artists are hustlers to a degree. We're all trying to figure out how can I make this thing I love to make make a living for me? And I just you know, getting into some of these gated things is not always the solution to that that goal. It it's it's nice to feel included in those things. So a lot of them are you know, some of these platforms can help you achieve that financial success to to do it full time, but I think a lot of it is just the The space tends to want to be on the lists.
There's you you mentioned the lists. There's nothing more divisive in the space than a list because it just it's so reductive in every way. And then, you know, in the end, it's always just the lists are almost always based on volume of sales. And very few times you see those lists actually represent anything other than that. Other or they represent that collector's personal bag holdings. And so I think the more artists can tune that type of stuff out, the better chance they'll find happiness in the space because a lot of that is just it it pries at the insecurities and the impostor syndromes that every artist has. You know? Super
Speaker 11 well said. Super well said. Well, Delta sauce, what do you think? Like, on reducing barriers and, like, you know, the inclusion and the lists and, I mean, Brian really put it well. Like, it is divisive when it comes to lists and stuff. But, you know, Luciana, also, at the same time, like, you know, your take is really, really interesting to hear too because, like, ultimately, it's not even about whether you're on the list or not. Right? Like, that's ultimately what you're saying, Brian. Like, it's more about, like, why are we here? What is the goal? And the goal is to really succeed by having collectors collect your work if you're an artist or have people use your app if you're a developer or, have people attend your talk or attend, whatever you're doing.
So it's not even about really, like, what everyone else thinks of what you're doing as much as it is about is what you're doing making an impact in your field or pushing you forward. Yeah. So Delta sauce, what do you think? Like, as far as, like, making people feel welcome with the open door policies, is there a way to really make that easier, or is it just kind of about changing and reframing our mindset rather than trying to feel welcomed?
Speaker 1 I think it's a combination of both. For for me, it's about, like, you know, on a very personal level, it's about, like, just being there if people reach out. I I you know, having that sort of policy, like, thing, you know, thing where someone reached out to me, I'll I'll I'll get back to them as soon as I can. And, like, you know, I can't do that for everyone, but I I I try my best. But, like, also reframing on, like, what does being welcomed here actually mean? And, like, another big question that, you know, I tell people to ask themselves is, are you here? Like, what are your overall goals? What are your intents? Like you know? And, again, this goes back to our earlier conversation today.
Like, you know, having these realistic expectations and not trying to inflate them or to compare to what everyone else has achieved or done in the space so far, I I think that's another, you know, thing that people fall into is, like, they see people getting to museums or, you know, they see people on list. And at the the end of the day, you kind of have to ask yourself, like, okay. Can I be should I be upset about these lists, or should I just go and make the best damn art that I can make and be happy with it and share that with the world? And I I vote to make the best art because, like, end of the day, a lot of the time, these lists are just noise. They're just noise in the space.
They're banging drums, and there's no point in wasting emotional energy on, you know, being upset that you're not on a list when you could take that emotional energy and put it towards your heart. So that that's really what I feel about list, but, like, you know, back on the whole welcome side of things, it's just like, you know, being there for people, I think, is very important. And and Brian brought this up as well. Like, you know, just sharing art. You know, sharing the art of others is being welcomed to them, I feel. Like, you know, sharing being there to to share with others, like, whether you collect it or not. I think, you know, that's another welcome sign for me, like, that you're you're, you know, you're accepted here into the space. It's like when people share your art, I I get like, for me personally, I get this deep feeling of, like, status satisfaction.
Like, someone thought my art was good enough to share. Like, they thought it was amazing to share on the timeline and give space to it. And I think we have to have that vibe moving forward, especially with, like, newcomers. Like, I I try my best to, like, go out there and and find new artists here in the space and share their work because, like, there are a lot of good artists here that just don't get the visibility. Like, because it's just, like, they're they're buried either in the algorithm or just people don't take notice. And I think, you know, we need to be more you know, we need to beat the drum for these newer artists, I feel, especially, you know, since we're more established here.
Speaker 11 Really well said. I feel like that's a really awesome place to leave off with this conversation because I think too, like, there's so many ways to think about, like, how to make people feel more welcome or but rather, I feel what I've really taken from this conversation is that it's it's less about trying to make people feel more welcome and more about reframing the idea of why anyone would need to feel welcome to begin with. Because if we're all on our journey of being the best artist that we can be, whether our art is code or physical art or digital art or, on chain art or AI or whatever you would insert, it's really about the journey of us being the best that we can be. And I think that if we're all on that journey, then we're actually all in the same tribe.
We're all in the same family of people. Like, because, ultimately, if one of us wins, then it kind of paves the way for the other people. So I think that it's just, really cool to kind of reflect on these perspectives every once in a while. And, these are some refreshing thoughts for me for sure. And I really appreciate you guys coming here today. Again, Brian and Delta, and Luciana, thank you for spending the time. And, this has been a really, really awesome talk. I feel anybody watching really would definitely have taken a lot from this. Thank you again for being here, and I'm stoked for to really just let this all sink in for me personally and and to just reflect more on, like, you know, what are we doing and and how we can continue to help people.
It really is all a personal growth journey as much as it is an external
Speaker 8 growth journey with our practice. So
Brian Thanks for having us. Appreciate you deeply. Thank you, guys. Of course.
Speaker 0 Thank you so much for the invitation. I enjoyed this space a lot. Thank you, guys.
Speaker 11 Likewise. And I appreciate you all. We'll go ahead, and we'll move into the next talk. We've got Jason Schwartz here backstage, and, stoked to bring him on up. We'll take a quick sixty second break, and then we will, dive into the next talk, which is the title of the talk is crypto tax matters for collectors, creators, and builders from the crypto tax guy himself. Really stoked to bring him on up here. So we'll do a quick sixty second break, and then we will start the next talk. Alright. We'll be right back.
Speaker 11 Alright. Let's bring up Jason. What's up, man? How are you?
Speaker 3 Pretty good. How about you?
Speaker 11 Doing good. Oh, I love the frames we've got going in the background.
Speaker 3 Is that too distracting, or is that alright? No. I think it's perfect. It's
Speaker 11 cool. Classic x copy works. Who would
Speaker 3 just, like, watch the x copy if we get bored by my tax stuff?
Speaker 11 I think this is one of the most important talks of the day. I think it's something that people just try to kind of ignore potentially in their mind of, like, how does this tax stuff work? And then we all are just kind of like, well, I guess we'll just figure it out. But this is, like, the actual, like, information that many people, I think, don't have access to. So, this is really important, and I really, really appreciate you coming on to discuss this and actually creating a place for us to, like, understand more about this information. Because, you know, if you hit Google, I mean, even just talking to ChatGPT, it's not very clear a lot of the information around how NFT tax, crypto tax really works. So I'm really stoked on this, and I really appreciate you being here.
Speaker 3 Yeah. And since we're all, like, so so up on all our NFTs, we have to worry about taxes a lot. Yeah.
Speaker 11 I guess we have to worry about more so how do we maximize our our losses year over year. We just have, like, unlimited, like, until the end of our lifetime, tax deduction.
Speaker 3 Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 11 We've maxed it out, so it's like now what? But I'm really stoked for this talk. And, I know you said that you had some slides. So, in the case you said you or you are gonna use those slides. Correct?
Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah. Let me do that. Perfect. Perfect.
Speaker 11 In that case, what I'm gonna do then is allow you to have the full screen. I'm just gonna have to, figure that part here, and you'll be able to switch your slides over. Do you see an option to put your slides on? I think it's, like, the three dots maybe.
Speaker 11 It might be on see where the camera is, potentially?
Speaker 11 there's a button next to that. It's like a little plus. Do you see that? It's like a
Speaker 3 If we can't do it, it's not a big deal. I'll just talk.
Speaker 11 I think that, I could do it maybe. Maybe you're not able
Speaker 11 But if you'd prefer just to talk, we could do that as well. But I I think I could pull up the slides if the most, updated version is the ones that I saw earlier today
Speaker 11 Fantastic. I'll pull that up, and, I can kinda guide through it then.
Speaker 3 Alright. Cool. And you should ask any questions or if other people I don't know if they can chime in or whatever. But
Speaker 11 Definitely. No. Let me find that quickly here, and we'll get that pulled up. Here we are.
Speaker 3 It was helpful also because I'm fighting a, a cold or whatever. So
Speaker 3 I feel good. Ask questions, then I can I can, like, pop another lozenge in?
Speaker 11 Nice. Okay. So here we go. We'll set it like this, put it in slideshow form, and I should be able to, here we go. Let me see. One moment here. Just some technical fun stuff I'm figuring out. Okay. So we have our studio here, and now okay. Do you see my screen or no?
Speaker 11 Okay. You see me. Okay. One Hold on. I know this is my, I'm figuring this out. Here we go. Slides, add from your computer. Oh, that's a unique thing. Let me just share screen, and here we go. Here we go. Boom. Ah, beautiful. Yeah. There we go. Beautiful.
Speaker 3 And I'm using the the Cahill, my firm's, thing without having gotten approval, but all good. Okay.
Speaker 11 Alright. Cool. As well. Fantastic.
Speaker 3 Alright. Cool. So, yeah, this is crypto tax matters for collectors, creators, and builders. How do I go forward, or do I have to ask you to?
Speaker 11 I I think I'll have to do it Alright. So hopefully. But I can do it just based off Okay. Cool.
Speaker 3 Yeah. So okay. So so here's the overview. Right? The a lot of people don't know sort of the basics. So I'm gonna start with the very basics and then kind of, you know, get slight you know, complex in stages. And then, hopefully, you know, there'll be time for questions and people can ask, like, their, you know, crazy questions or go back to basic questions if they need to. First of all, this is all US tax related. I'm a US federal tax lawyer, so I'm not gonna talk about your, like, French or Canadian or German situation. Second, just, you know, lawyer speak. I'm not your lawyer. Speak to your own tax lawyer or accountant. This is a generic overview of US tax. Okay? Third, I'm not a fed. Right? Like, I I know that, you know, we're in crypto. There's a lot of positions that people can take.
The tax laws are entirely unclear. I'm gonna try to provide kind of rules of thumb that people can follow if they want to be compliant. I'm not telling you that you have to be compliant. That's your own personal decision. But, you know, this is hopefully helpful. So at least you know what the rules, you know, are or sort of have a rough sense of what people seem to think the rules currently are. The the there's really no black letter law in this space. So, you know, even I don't know what the rules are, frankly. But okay. Like, starting from no. No. No. Go go back. Go back. Okay. So so starting from basics. Okay? Assuming an an NFT is held for investment and not for personal use, you determine whether you have net gains or losses in a year. Okay?
So so, you know, your NFT is something called the capital asset. Right? It's property, like, similar to, you know, stock or, you know, or whatever, stock or bonds or something. You you determine your your net gain or your net loss. Basically, you know, if you have, like, a 100 of gain and 10 of loss and you have 90 of net gain, you determine whether your net gain is long term or short term. There are special rules on on, you know, sort of of of, like, netting longs against shorts. But, basically, you know, you you sort of put everything into a bucket, you net, and what what if you have, you know, if you have if you if you have sort of more long term than short term, then then the result is generally long term. Long term means you held for more than a year.
Long term are taxed at preferential rates for individuals. Losses capital losses, whether they're short term or long term, are subject to limitations. Okay? So you you can only offset up to $3,000 of ordinary income each year. Right? So so in other words, capital losses offset capital gains completely. Right? If you have, like if you sell an NFT for, you know, 100 ETH gain, lucky you, and then in the same year sell for, you know, a 100 ETH loss, you have a net zero. Right? No tax. Right? But if you sell for, you know, 10 ETH gain and then you sell at a 20 ETH loss, you have, you know, 10 ETH net capital loss. And that net capital loss can only offset up to $3,000 of your, like, salary and other ordinary income items for the taxable year. And the rest just gets carried forward indefinitely.
So, you know, for those of us who, you know, spent way too much money on NFTs over the years, if we end up, you know, loss harvesting, which I'll talk about later, and have a bunch of capital losses, they're not, you know, they're they're not that valuable, like, today, but they can be valuable in future years if you have a lot of gains. And and, I mean, even if you don't, you know, eventually, you can sort of at least offset some of your some of your ordinary income. Personal losses are nondeductible. So that's, like, one rule that's kind of nuts. Like, I have paintings. Right? I have, like, actual physical paintings on my walls. If if I I don't know. If if I, like, sell a painting to a friend and I don't know. It's it's kind of harder to say that paintings are investment assets.
I I mean, they they often are. Right? But I don't have, like, a a a history of investing in paintings. I might have difficulty claiming the loss at all because it's you know, my my painting you know, the IRS might assert that my painting is my my loss is personal. So don't ever tell anyone other than your Twitter friends that you're, you know, you're only in it for the art. You are making investments as well. You can be partially in it for the art, but but these are also investments. And and assuming, you know, assuming they are, they're you know, you get you get capital gains and capital losses. Alright. Next slide.
Speaker 11 Real quick. I'll just chime in with a question on that one. Personal losses. So that means that so a personal loss, how does that differ from, like, a loss if you sell at a loss? Like, say, you buy an NFT for one e, then you sell for point two.
Speaker 3 I mean, I think that just as a general rule, like, let's all agree that, like, when people buy NFTs, they're not you know, those aren't just personal consumptive purchases. Right? I mean, you're crazy if you if if you take an alternative position because you're just denying yourself losses. Right? But yeah. I mean, look. If if I buy look. My my my iPhone as an example. Like, when I purchased my iPhone, that's just, like, clearly a personal purchase. If I then turn around and I sell it to you for, like, $800 yeah. I bought it for a thousand, let's say. I sell it to you for 800. I don't get to take a $200 loss. You know? So, like, just don't you know? I mean, just, like it's just, like, this is sort of, like, a cute, like, aside that I'm making.
You know, don't you don't have to worry about it. Let's just, like, all agree. These are investment assets. I mean, otherwise, what's the point of buying something on chain? Right? The point is that you have more liquidity. So let's go to the next slide. So there a lot of there's been a lot of chatter over the last number of years on whether NFTs are collectibles. This is like I have gotten a lot of questions on this. It's sort of funny. The IRS actually put out guidance on this a few years ago on, like, how they'll determine whether an NFT is a collectible. It was it's like it's kind of funny because there's, you know, the IRS has not put out a whole lot of tax guidance on crypto.
And, you know, I I think it it's like a bizarre place to start, you know, like, whether an NFT is a collectible, but I think they were just sort of dipping their toes in the water in a place where the stakes were low. The the concept of collectibles is really strange in part because the definition and the tax code of what a collectible is is not at all what you would expect a collectible to be. Like, for example, Pokemon cards are not collectibles, but, like, the Mona Lisa would be a collectible. Like, a work of art is a collectible. Right? So so the tax definition of a collectible, basically, it includes, like, antiques, you know, rare coins, you know, other metals, precious metals, and works of art. So so for our purposes, you know, the the works of art point is is is salient.
The rules on collectibles the tax code has two sets of rules on collectibles. One is that you can't hold collectibles in a four zero one k, and one is that when you sell a collectible, your long term capital gains rate is 28%. Whereas if you sell a noncollectible, like stocks, bonds, or, you know, as I'll go on to say, most NFTs at a long term capital at at a long term gain, your rate is 20%. So, generally, you don't want your NFTs to be collectibles. And I'll just sort of cut to the chase. They're probably not. And I would, like, I would generally advise people to take the position that unless their NFTs actually link to a physical off chain work of art and the value is really that physical work of art and the NFT is merely a title transfer device, their NFT is not a collectible.
Like like, if if if you're if you're buying an NFT as a, you know, as a title transfer device in respect of a physical off chain work of art, then I think you you'd have to be worried about collectibles, but otherwise not. And and just just to sort of the reason is number one, this is sort of funny, but but the definition of collectibles, it goes through a whole list. Right? Like like, you know, including including works of art. And then at the end of the list, it says, or any other tangible personal property specified by the IRS. So any other tangible personal property. And I think that you have a good a very good argument on the basis of that language that, like, okay. You know, that means that everything that precedes that flush language has to be tangible. Right? Any other tangible. Right?
So so, like, you know, digitally native NFTs, which are not tangible, are just not collectibles, like, full stop. Number two is a lot of NFTs are not works of art. I mean, like, you know, all all due respect to, you know, whatever NFRs and, like, cryptos and stuff. I love them. But, like, I don't think that if, you know, that that they satisfy the, you know, Harper Collins dictionary definition of a work of art. Right? Like, PFP projects are closer to Pokemon cards than to, you know, the Mona Lisa. So, you know, I would I would argue that they're not. You know, even if they were tangible, they would not be they would not be works of art, and they would not be collectibles. So, you know, long story short, back to the original rule of, you know, you net your gains and your losses, and if you have net long term gains as an individual, you're taxed at preferential rates.
Okay. What does that mean preferential rates? Well, it means 20%, assuming that, you know, your NFTs are not actually linked to some off chain work of art. Next slide. Okay. So so how do you actually determine your gain or your loss? This surprises a lot of people. When you buy an NFT with crypto, you're treated as selling the crypto for dollars at their fair market value and using those dollars to buy the NFT. Like, that's how you should always think about it. So, like, if you buy an NFT for 2 ETH, you know what what's ETH right now? I don't wanna know. But, you know, let let's pretend It's
Speaker 3 ETH. Let's let's say it's 3,000. Right? So so you have, you know, you have 6,000. That's your amount realized. You have to determine what you bought that eath ETH at. Right? Like, let's say let's say you you bought that ETH at 5,000. You so your amount recognized is your, you know, 6,000 gain minus your 5,000 basis, your cost basis. Right? And you have a $1,000 gain, and then you bought the NFT, your new basis in that NFT is $6,000. Right? It's not it's not your ETH. Right? So then if you subsequently sell for, you know, to ETH, right, but ETH at that point is $10,000, as we all know it will be next year, you actually have a massive gain. Right? You you have because because you you sold for $20,000, your your basis is $6,000. You have a $14,000 gain.
So, like, it's it's super annoying because it means that you you have to track your, you know, everything in dollar terms rather than in crypto terms. And, unfortunately, that's just how crypto works because the IRS says crypto and NFTs are all just property, just like stocks. Right? You don't denominate in stocks. Right? Like, when you when you buy IBM, you know, one IBM share, it goes up in value, and then you sell it. You don't say, like, oh, I just just had one IBM share. You calculate your gain in dollar terms, and same with crypto and same with NFTs. What complicates matters is that there are now special rules on on, like, how you determine which ETH you used. Right? And I'm saying ETH, by the way. Obviously, it applies to, like, SOL or or whatever. I I tend to play more in the ETH space, although Solana's great.
I'm not, like, a maxi or anything, but let let's just continue to use ETH. It's it's easier for me. So there there are special rules on on on spit like, on identification of which ETH you use. The general rule, if you don't, like, elect out of it, is first in, first out. So you basically have to look at you know, you're you're always treated as disposing of the earliest ETH you acquired, which obviously, like, tends to suck. Right? Like like, if you're an OG, you bought ETH at, like, a $100, then that, like, really sucks because then when you dispose of any ETH, even if you also bought ETH at, like, $4,000, you know, you're you're treated as first selling your thousand dollar ETH or your $100 ETH, which which blows. Right? So there's an alternative which is specific ID.
Specific ID lets you, like, actually, you know, specify which lot, which basis lot you're using. Unfortunately, the the technical rule is that you're supposed to assuming, you know this is all self custody, by the way. I'm I'm just, like, assuming. No one buys NFTs through, like, their Coinbase account. You're you're supposed to make a contemporaneous, like, record somewhere of which lot you're using. So, like, literally, like, journal it out, like, at the time that you use the EU. No one is gonna do that. Right? Like, I I I mean, I'm just I'm just telling you what the rules are. I don't do that. But you know? And and I think, frankly, it's it's, like, crazy. Like, if the IRS ever comes after you, you know, you can presumably go back, you know, and and deal with a headache then of, like, you know, scrutinizing Etherscan and determining, like, you know, old values of ETH and, like, reconstructing, you know, contemporaneous records.
Right? Which presumably is, like, what people will do, but, technically, that's not what you're allowed to do. Like like, you you if you want a spec ID, you have to actually make a record at the time that you dispose of the ETH in exchange for the NFT. There's another rule, and I'm I'm focusing on this because, like, a lot of people have asked me about this recently. So, like, hopefully, it's not too boring. But the IRS put out this weird guidance at the end of last year that no one really focused on, and then accountants started tweeting, like like, serious, like, you know, doomsday tweets. Like, you guys are all screwed. You can't use universal wallet reporting. Universal, you know, universal wallet reporting is dead. And and what that basically, what the accountants interpreted the rule to be, what many accountants interpreted the rule to be is that, like, this this guidance came out.
It was super vague. It was super like, very difficult to parse. And the accountants accountants believe that what it means is that you actually have to go wallet by wallet. So, like, if you have, you know, ETH that you bought for $4,000 in, you know, wallet a, like, self custody wallet a, and then you buy an NFT out of self custody wallet b, but wallet b only has, like, you know, $100 basis ETH, then you can't say that you use the $4,000 basis ETH to buy the NFT, right, which, like, really screws you because that means you have a massive gain on your purchase. I wrote an article. It's it's it's you could just you could probably find it on Twitter if you search my, you know, profile and then search universal wallet reporting lives on. A very catchy title.
But but, basically, like, the the I think the the guidance actually doesn't do what it, like, thought it did. Because if you, like, dig into the IRS's definitions, they define wallet to mean any means of storing private keys. So, like like, you can literally write all of your wallet address like, all of your wallet, like, private keys on, like, one piece of paper, and boom. You have, like, one single wallet. And, like, that means you can just treat everything as a single wallet. So, like, I I I would not take that accounting, like, doomsdayer, you know, tweeting as, you know, as gospel except for coins held at an account, like in Coinbase or Kraken or Gemini or Binance or whatever.
There, it's very clear that, like, if you have coins in Coinbase and then you, you know let's say, have ETH in Coinbase and then you have ETH in self custody and you use ETH that's in self custody to buy an NFT, you can't treat yourself as having used the ETH that's in Coinbase. Okay? So, like, basically, you can you know, I I believe you can use universal wallet reporting for anything that you hold in any self custody wallet. It's all just like one big pool. But anything you hold in an actual account, in a custodial account, is there. Like like, you can't, like, combine it with the rest of your with the rest of your crypto.
Speaker 3 Hopefully, that was, like, fairly clear. Yeah. Exactly.
Speaker 11 Pretty good sense. Yeah.
Speaker 3 Okay. And, yeah, if you want if you want, like, the technical dive, just just you know, if anyone wants it, they can DM me or or just find it on my Twitter. So so here's where it gets, like, more complicated. What happens when you sell an NFT for another NFT? You swap NFTs. So there, you're actually, again, treated as selling the NFT for dollars at its fair market value and using those dollars to buy the new NFT. But, like, how the hell do you determine, you know, what the value is? No one knows the answer. So, you know, like, people have rules of thumb. Right? Some people use, like, an intraday OpenSea price if, you know, by some miracle, there's actually liquidity in that collection. But, like, I actually think that that's that that's actually, like, pretty conservative because why like like, NFTs are nonfungible.
Like, it it's weird to say that, like, you you know, that that, like, the price at which someone else sold some other, you know, kind of, you know, tangentially related piece of property dictates the price at which you're selling your piece of property. So I think that there's, like, fairly wide latitude to deter I mean, look. You have to you you're supposed to be reasonable. You're supposed to act in good faith. But, like, I don't know. Maybe, like, look at the current flu like, the current bid price, right, rather than the, like, current sales prices to determine, you know, the value of your NFT. Like, I I think you you have pretty wide latitude in in determining what's reasonable. And you go because you generally want to, you know, minimize the amount of gain.
You generally want to, you know, find as low a value as possible when you swap NFTs if assuming, you know, assuming you're actually, you know, paying taxes on this, which you know? Does that make sense?
Speaker 11 Yeah. Yeah. It does. Well so when you sell an NFT for another NFT, that would mean that you're trading an NFT. So if I traded a max pain for, a, like, I don't know, another, like, lower tiered x copy edition, like the, NFT Box is one that I'm forgetting the name of, but you probably remember. Basically, if I traded you an x copy for another x copy, is that the example that you're making here when you're saying one sell an NFT for NFT?
Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When you when you swap NFTs. Right. You're you're So
Speaker 11 then you have to know the value. And is it just based on the floor price at that point?
Speaker 3 No. That's what I'm saying. Like, no one knows. So, like, you know yeah. I mean, like, let's say right. Let let's say let's say that you're you're swapping I mean, this this gets, like, really crazy. Let's say that you're swapping, like, 10 max pains, like, for some slightly higher edition x copy. Right? So you need to know, like, your dot your basis in dollar terms in each of those max paints. Right? And then you deter like, you determine what's the value of the new x copy you're getting. Right?
Speaker 4 Interesting. What do you do to determine
Speaker 3 that value? Like, presumably, you look at, like I mean, what I would do I'm not tax advice. I'm not your tax lawyer blah blah blah. I would use, like, the low I I would use the the current bid price. Yeah. That you
Speaker 3 Yeah. Which is which is usually really low. This is, like, highly illiquid stuff. Right? Even even ex copy is highly illiquid. Let's say it's a remnant. Right? I don't I I I don't wanna know what they're training at right now. But you know? So so, like, let's say, you know, it we we determine that that's, you know, whatever, you know, $10,000 or whatever.
Speaker 3 Maybe I'm being, you know, a little generous to my bags. But and, you know, you you you actually have to you you take that $10,000, and you have to spread it across the 10 max pains that you're, you know, selling for it that you're trading for it. All max pains presumably are worth the same. So you spread the $10,000 equally across each max pain, and you determine your gain. Like, maybe you bought the Max Payne themselves at different dollar amounts. You determine your gain on each one, right, and you pay tax on that gain. It gets harder when you're you you let's say, you're swapping one Max Payne and one, you know, Cryptoed, right, for, you know, for an x copy remnant. There, you you also have to, like, split your $10,000, you know, thing that you're getting, right, across those two assets.
And presumably, you're splitting that based on those two assets relative fair market values. But you don't know their fair market value. So you just have to, like, come up with something kind of rough justice. You know, you figure
Brian like, okay. Cryptoed is worth,
Speaker 3 you know, whatever, like, you know, $7,000, and my max pains are worth $3,000. And so and I bought my Cryptoed for, you know, $4,000, so I have a $3,000 gain on that. And I bought my max pains at, you know, whatever. Yeah. You get the point. But, like Right. It ends up being, like, a huge a huge hassle. Your tax software is not like, it it might do it for you, but, like, it probably won't. Right? Like, I'm I don't think most tax softwares are not good with NFT swaps. Most NFT swaps are are, you know, are done, unfortunately, like or at least many NFT swaps are done over the counter anyway in, like, trusted or intermediated transactions. So, like, the tax software won't even know that you swapped to this for that, and you just have to fill in the numbers. You know?
Do, like, a reasonable job with it. Right? Like like, it's it's gonna be hard. I mean, you know, speaking practically, it's it's it's gonna be really hard for anyone to, including you, to, like, piece together what happened in the end. Ideally, you take good notes at the at the time you do it. But, like, even if you don't, like, oh, okay. Like, is an auditor gonna, you know, question you if you just sort of make a good faith effort. No.
Speaker 11 Yeah. It's an interesting thing because, like, what if you were to if, like, somebody said, hey. I'll give you I'll trade you my CryptoPunk for your illiquid valueless NFT, but then you just trade it back.
Speaker 3 No. I mean, like okay. So so, like, so taxes are like, the the tax discipline Is very much substance over form driven. So there are, like, anti abuse like, the the IRS has wide anti abuse authority, right, to Oh, yes. Okay. Like, ignore transactions that lack economic effect, for example. So, and we'll get to what actually, I think the next slide is watch trading. So it's a it's a good it's a good
Speaker 11 That was gonna be my next question about Yeah.
Speaker 3 Oh, okay. So, look, you're definitely allowed to watch sell crypto assets. And by the way, when I say say wash sell, I'm not talking about securities law in case there's any, you know, securities lawyers listening in or whatever. That's a totally different concept. Wash selling for tax means, you know, selling to generate a loss, right, and to generate a tax loss. And there's actually rules on stocks and securities, securities being for this purpose, debt in the tax code that, like, limits wash selling. So so just so you know, if you sell IBM stock or a treasury at a loss and within thirty days, either before or after the sale, you acquire substantially identical stock or treasuries or other securities, your your loss is disallowed. But that rule does not apply currently to anything other than stocks and debt.
So, you know, so by the way, like, if you bought ETH, you know, at the pump and it's now trading at 3,000 or less, like, we're approaching the end of the year, you know, sell and buy it back, you know, a short period after and, you know, just generate the capital loss. Like, no. Why not? It's just like a free tax asset that you can use against any gain any future gains, right, any current gains, and some amount of ordinary income every year and do it. I mean, it's it's there's nothing there's nothing illegal or or, like, you know, frowned upon about that. I did say that the IRS has kind of broad, you know, anti abuse authority. So, like, in theory, the IRS can say, oh, what you did has no economic effect. Okay. So, like, don't sell it and, like, buy it back in, an atomic transaction.
You know? But, like, but look. Like, we all know that crypto is hugely volatile. So if you sell ETH and you buy it back, like, even a couple minutes later, like, you've taken real market risk in those few minutes. So I think it would be hard for the IRS to assert that you that that, like, your transaction lacked economic effect. So okay. That that's just, like, an aside on crypto. NFTs, clearly, you can wash sell, but it it's gotta be, like, a real sale. So, you know, there are a lot of these, like, smart contract platforms, like NFT loss harvester is is one, and there's, like, three o's or something. There's a few, yeah, there's a few others that will that are just, like, programmed to buy your NFTs for, like, one way. Abandonment losses are just denied. They're they're not allowed to any individuals.
Speaker 11 So just don't work. Those are basically They just don't work. Oh. They don't work. Wonder if they know that.
Speaker 3 Yeah. I don't know. So yeah. So so, like, don't don't do that. I mean, okay. Look. If you have no other option, you know, maybe you can do that and just take the position and hope the IRS remains, you know, remains as understaffed as it currently is. But, like, so much better to just sell into the lowest WEAF bid on, you know, Magic Eden or OpenSea or whatever. Right? Yeah. CryptoPunk for, like, a valueless NFT and then turn around, you know, that's not gonna I don't I don't think that's gonna do anything. Burning is just an abandonment. You know? Yeah. But but, yeah, selling, you know, selling so so, like, look, you know, you and I, maybe we both bought NFTs, like, in the same collection. Let's say, like, yeah, let's say, like, even even Max Paynes. Right? They're not they're they're ERC seven twenty ones, so they actually have different numbers.
Right? So, like, they're arguably different assets even though they're the same image. Right? Some people prefer one number over another. I think I think it's harder with with, like, semi fungibles, right, to to argue that, like, you can do this. But with with NFTs, with with ERC seven twenty ones, like, I swap you my max pain for your max pain. And as of you know, we wouldn't do this unless we both had a loss in dollar terms, and then we can both take our loss. We're, like, we're literally we're literally swapping assets, and we we end up you know, and then just like some people can do this also with with the assets within the same collection, assuming that they have, like, roughly the same traits. You know? So it's it's a great way to generate losses just before the New Year while remaining exposed to that artist or collection.
And everyone should, you know, explore their collection to determine if they have any opportunities like that. Yeah. Any questions on that? Is that fairly
Speaker 11 No. I think that's really solid. I did totally did not know that, you know, using those services is kind of ineffective.
Speaker 11 Definitely new knowledge for me. And I think, like, you know, the only way then, to be clear, to generate your loss is either if you have liquid asset, which for NFTs, obviously, it wouldn't count. But for liquid asset, it makes sense easily to sell it for whatever liquid liquidity is. For an illiquid asset, like an NFT, it's basically just you figuring out, like, what, like, someone's willing to buy it for without burning it and without, you know, using one of those abandonment type contracts. Is that right?
Speaker 11 Yeah. A fair way to say it. Like but, like, if I went and said to my friend, hey. Will you buy my useless NFT, like or, you know, whatever? It's the art. At the end of the day, it's still the art. Right? So it's not useless. But, if you buy my valueless NFT for 1p, that would that count, or would that be me kind of still skirting around it and making it more of an abandonment thing?
Speaker 3 No. I think that's fine. I think that's fine. Like, my my problem like, my concern, I guess, with, like, the, you know, NFT lost harvester isn't that, like, the price is that low. It's that, like, you're not, you're not actually selling it to anyone. You know? Like, I you know, it's it's similar to I think maybe you can tell me if I'm wrong. Like, I I haven't, like, really looked into that. I I shouldn't have mentioned the name because because, like, honestly, I haven't really looked I haven't looked into exactly how it works. But, like, I think it's equivalent to just driving, you know, your car off a cliff. Right? Like like, no one is actually pay no one is actually there paying for it. But if I like, if if there's, like, a bonafide, you know, like, arm's length transaction, and I'm like, yeah.
I'll buy your NFC for a penny, then, like, sure. You know? But, like, the the if if there's just a, like, a dumb smart contract, you know, that's, like, programmed to buy it, that's just, like, equivalent to sending it to the burn address. And I I don't see how that's not just an abandonment.
Speaker 11 Yeah. Well, technically, it's an entity, though, isn't it? I mean, the contract itself?
Speaker 3 The contracts are not entities.
Speaker 11 That that makes sense.
Speaker 3 Yeah. So I I don't know. I mean, maybe there's someone in the maybe there's some, like, weirdo who, like, seeded seeded the contract with, like, $10, and they're like, oh, I I get all these NFTs now. I I don't know. Like, if that's true, then fine. Yeah. Interesting. Very know. May maybe maybe, like, okay. Like like, I'll I'll I'll stand corrected if that's the case. Like, you know, if I guess, like, if I, you know, if I, crypto tax guy, like, create a contract, see it with $10, and I'm like, oh, cool. This is my way of, like, dumpster diving. Like, anyone can, like, sell me their NFTs for, like, one way. Right? I get, like, $10 worth of NFTs, and then I'm gonna, like, sift through them and, like, maybe sell some and hope that I end up with, like, $20. Yeah. That's that's fair.
That that that works. But if it's just, like, if it's just, like, a contract that, like, someone, like, you know, burn the admin keys to or something or you know, I I don't like, that's not that's not a sale. That's just
Speaker 11 something. So it's somewhat arguable that if there was someone on the other end that those harvester contracts would still work, but burning it does not.
Speaker 3 No. Burning definitely
Speaker 3 it. Very interesting. And and I guess, like, I guess, like, there's another question. The there's another question, which is, like, if the purchase price oh, here here's, like, another yeah. Here's another issue. If the purchase price is less than the amount of gas that you're paying to, like, to, like, execute the transaction, I don't know. I think you're gonna have a hard time arguing that it's not abandonment. Interesting.
Brian Like, why would you have engaged in the transaction?
Speaker 3 You know? Like, I I don't know. Yeah. Look. Look. Like, you know how I said at the beginning, like, there's no black letter law here? There's no black letter law.
Brian I I would just say, like, as a general rule, better
Speaker 3 to take better to take a a wheat bed than, you know, lost harvester. I guess then I'd say better to take lost harvester than burn, and burn is the worst. And burn is just, I think, clearly abandonment.
Speaker 11 Oh, alright. That's interesting. Oh, this is a nice slide.
Speaker 3 Oh, airdrop. So airdrop's like, no well, let's just say, like, no one has any idea. No. I'll I'll go I'll go through it, but it's really crazy. Okay. So so the IRS has not put out any guy any, like, relevant guidance on airdrops of NFTs. Okay? The IRS put out a weird revenue ruling, which is revenue rulings just, you know, for for the geeks out there are are our guidance that is binding on the IRS, but not binding on taxpayers. So it's supposed to just be helpful. Like, you know, here's how we think the law works, and, like, you we think you should follow it, but, like, you don't have to. It's not like the law. You know? So they put out a revenue ruling. The revenue ruling, it was early days. It was actually addressing it did it didn't say so, but it was clearly addressing their interpretation of what happened in the Bitcoin Bitcoin cash fork.
And they they the way they phrase what they were addressing was they talked about a an airdrop following the hard fork. It was, like, very strange. Like, they they thought, for some reason, that, like, the receipt of Bitcoin Cash by, like, former Bitcoin holders was an airdrop, which, like, clearly is something different. You know? But they didn't understand it at the time. Okay? So so this is all, like, a big wind up to say, like, you know, we have guidance on airdrops, but it's not really guidance on airdrops. It's guidance on forks. And in that guidance, they said, we think that when you have dominion and control over the new tokens, you're taxed at fair market value of those new tokens. And when do you have dominion in control? You have dominion in control when you have the ability to to transfer those tokens. Okay?
That is super unclear. Right? Because, like, let like, even applied to fungible tokens today, no one really knows how it applies. Like, number one, if someone I oh, and by the way, it's it's exercise dominion control. So it's like when you manifest the intent to sort of claim the ability to transfer this token. So if someone sends me trash, like, someone just sends me, like, some some dust that I, like, don't even notice in my wallet, I think I have a very good argument that I never exercised them in it in control. So, like, I never even manifested the desire to transfer. Even if they have some amount of money and some amount of value, like, I don't you know, I'm not taxed on that. So, like, you got a bunch of you know, similarly, you get a bunch of, like, trash NFTs, you know, which I I I have, like, a billion, like, fake x copies for some reason in my in my wallet.
I can't even, like, find the real ones, though. You know, I'm not gonna, like, report income on those even if they have a secondary market value because I I I never manifested an intention to claim the ability to transfer them. So I never manifested or I never exercised dominion control. But but, like, let's move on from that that. Like, what about claims? Like, if you you know, many airdrops now are are just claims. They're not, like they don't get, like, sent to your wallet. Is the is the time of dominating control, like, when you actually claim, or is it when you have the ability to claim? Like, I think a very good argument exists for either approach. So I would say, like, choose an approach and just try to exercise it consistently. Right? I mean, it's sort of, you know, it's sort of we like, it's it's weird.
It's like, you know, if you have the ability to claim, that's the same that's, like, economically identical to having it in your wallet. Like, it's in it's in your wallet. It's just, like, in a wallet that someone else set up for you, basically. So you could say, I have I had them in in control, you know, when the tokens were worth zero, you know, be before they were even like, at at the literal time that they became available to claim, which is there there was no secondary market for them, I had them in in control. I just didn't claim them until, you know, a week later when, you know, there was a billion dollar market cap. I I I don't think that that's an unreasonable position. You know, some people, like, try to time their claims.
Something goes like they they say, like, oh, like, we're you know, I don't have too many in control until I actually claim. I think, you know, that's reasonable too. I think they're being, like, somewhat conservative, but, you know, it's it's reasonable. With NFTs, obviously, there's there's the additional question of how you value them. Like, if you get an NFT, you know, maybe you have to apply these same rules. But as I said, like, you know I mean, a discussion of, like, the Bitcoin Bitcoin cash hard fork is not, like it's not immediately apparent that that discussion applies to, like, you know, some artists, like, making NFTs available for their, like, loyal, you know, collectors. Right? So so, like, I I don't, you know, I I don't know. Like like, you you know, you might you might, like, you might say, okay.
I'm gonna, like, apply this revenue ruling, and I'm gonna, like, try to determine the fair market value at the time that I have dominating control, whatever, you know, however I define that. Then I'm gonna pay, like, ordinary income, you know, tax on that. But you might alternatively say, no. Like, the airdrop was a gift. Like, I'm friends with the artist, and they gave me me this NFT out of, you know, just the goodness of their heart. Now just on that point, gifts for US tax purposes are very narrowly construed. Like, there has to actually be donative intent. Right? It really has to be out of the goodness of someone's heart, not for, like, marketing purposes or whatever. But I will say, like, I have received NFTs from artists that I consider to be gifts. So, you know, like, make your own make your own decision.
Sometimes the the airdrop might be part of the package. Right? Like like, maybe you you purchased an you purchased an NFC that with the expectation of, like, an upcoming airdrop. There's actually this is not case law on point, but there's, like, funny no. A funny analogy. There's, like, a ruling where the IRS let a purchaser of a pregnant cow split their basis between the cow and the calf. Right? So, like, you know, if you buy an NFT and then, like, a week later, there's an airdrop and you knew you knew the airdrop was coming, maybe, like, if you spend a $100 on the NFT, like, you end up splitting the $100 between the NFT and the AirDrop, and you just call it a day. You don't have any income. If you bought, like, a a a loot box of some sort, right, Like, I think that that would be a good argument.
There's no income. Right? Like, you bought whatever was inside the loot box. Right? So, like, you don't have ordinary income when you open the loot box. Like, you split your purchase price to, you know, determine in dollars among the eventual NFTs that you get out of the loot box. I think, also, there's an argument that if you have to spend gas on claiming an NFT or, you know, fungible tokens as well, There's a decent argument that, like, you actually did pay for it. Like, maybe maybe, like, maybe the the, like, right interpretation is, like, you know, this artist was willing to sell their wares for, like, the cost of the transfer. Right? Like, if you if you pay them the cost of the transfer, then, you know, then you get you get the art.
And, like, you know, that's just like a that's just good, you know, good way for an artist to get their art out there. Right? And and if that's the case, then great. Your basis is just the gas that you paid, and you don't have any ordinary income. So I think, you know, I guess, like, long story short, a lot of people fret over airdrops. And, you know, I think, like, the the conservative approach is to, you know, pay tax at ordinary rates on the value of the NFT, I guess, when you, like, receive it or claim it. But I think that there are reasonable and maybe even better arguments that, like, many airdrops are just zero. You know? Like like, either because, like, the NFT wasn't worth anything at the time you had dominating control or because you
Brian actually paid for it or because it was a gift.
Speaker 3 Again, not your lawyer, but, like, you know, I just think this is you know, we gotta come up with reasonable approaches here.
Speaker 11 Interesting stuff. Interesting stuff. Because, like, if you're if say, though, the value goes up between the time that you had dominion and control, is that now a capital gains
Speaker 3 question? Yeah. Then it's a capital gain. Right. Right. Okay. But at least you've, like, you've put off the tax event. You know?
Speaker 11 Right. Right. I see. Okay.
Speaker 3 And and capital gain is better. I mean, I Assuming you hold for more than a year, which I guess is a big assumption in this world. But, like, you know, your your capital gain is 20%, whereas ordinary income is up to, you know, 37%.
Speaker 3 Yeah. Let's let's let's, yeah, let's
Brian normalize holding for more than a year
Speaker 3 again. Okay. So so just, like, a little a little, like, PSA on deductions. Deduct you you don't you investors who are like most of us, almost all of us, cannot deduct worthlessness. I I already said abandonment. So you can't deduct abandonment. You can't deduct worthlessness losses. And that's actually one bit of guidance the IRS also did put out, which was a little obnoxious, I thought. Because it's like, yeah, we we know, but they're they're just like,
Speaker 11 you know Rubbing it in our face, you
Speaker 3 said? Rubbing rubbing it in your face. Yeah. If if an NFT goes to zero and it's totally illiquid, you, like, can't you know, you're just, like, you're just you're just fucked. I mean, maybe at in that situation, you use you use a loss harvesting thing and you just take the position that that, you know, you that you sold and, like you know? I mean, look. I'm not I'm not saying not to.
Speaker 3 know? But but that you know, your your yeah. Worthless losses are not deductible. Fat finger trades are also like like, if I just accidentally sell to a, you know, to a dead wallet or send to a dead wallet, I don't get a loss. Theft losses are allowed only if you entered into the relevant transaction for profit. So no one really knows what the relevant transaction is. But, presumably, if you got fish, there was there's a transaction. Like, presumably, like, if you if someone just, like, hacked you, you can also just say there was a transaction. Like, you bought the NFT and then they hacked you. So, you know, theft losses so so assuming there's a there is a transaction entered into for profit and you have ordinary income for the year, so that includes, like, salary. Right?
You you can take your theft losses up to the amount of your ordinary income, but you don't get to carry forward. So, like, once you zero out your income, like, that's it.
Speaker 3 Yeah. So so, like, anything that's not a theft. Right? Oh, and a theft, by the way, has to be, like, illegal in your jurisdiction, and, you know, it's it's only allowed in the year that you discover it. So, like, I don't know if you don't claim it, like, this year. You can't, like, let it ride to next year. But, yeah, unfortunately, like, you know, something's doing something stupid, like losing your private keys or, like, sending to a dead wallet or something, those aren't thefts. So you just don't get a deduction. You're just shit out of luck, which really, really sucks, and I know people it's happened to.
Speaker 11 And the IRS recognizes the term fat finger. Is this No.
Speaker 3 No. I'm just saying, like, it doesn't it doesn't fall into you know, I I yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't fall into, like, any, any definition. Like, individuals are only allowed to deduct, like, specific types of losses, and, you know, this doesn't fall into any one of those specific types of losses. Gas fees are also not, like, not deductible. So so it's actually kind of interesting. Like, when you when you expend gas to buy an NFT, that gets added to your basis. So you kind of get to deduct it eventually. Right? Because, like, eventually, like, it reduces your gain or or increases your loss. But, like, if you spend gas to, like, subsequently set send all of your shit to a new wallet, right, like, a a new address, like, that's just lost. Like, you don't get to add it to your, like, basis and your assets or anything. Yeah.
Speaker 11 Yeah. Well, that answers a lot of good questions there, though, because, like, a lot of people in 2021, they, you know, spent so much money on gas. But the reality is it always was added to the basis of the purchase. Like Yeah. When you're buying other side for 5 ETH gas fee, it was just part of the cost of buying other side. It wasn't like other side was 1 ETH and then, you know, 6 ETH was spent total, but I'd sell it for 2 ETH to be happy. Like you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 Man, those old gas wars were so funny. I I miss I miss those days. Yeah. Maybe those
Speaker 11 days will come back someday. Who knows? Yeah. Yeah. So
Speaker 11 I don't know. But okay. Wait. So we do have only two more minutes until we
Speaker 3 Let me let me actually yeah. This is actually the most ex yeah. This is the most exciting part. Too bad I I dragged my feet getting here. But I'll I'll I'll just say, like like, there are NFTs that represent, you know, ownership in, like, a thing, like like a like an entity. Right? Entity I'm saying entity loosely. But I'm I'm talking about DAOs. Right? Like, nouns is, like, the best example. But, look, I'm part of the doomsdow. We collect ex copy work. And the the the IRS defines a partnership really broadly, like, for for US tax purposes. Like, you know, any joint venture for profit appears to be a partnership. Okay? So, like, technically, that means that, like, you know, you when the partnership when this, you know, multisig or whatever that you're a part of sells assets oh, first of all, it it means it means a few things.
One, when you buy in, you're technically, you're not subject to tax because, like, you're not actually buying something from someone. You're contributing money into a pot. You know? So, like, if if you and I create a partnership and we put, like each of us puts, let's say, IBM stock into the partnership, we're not immediately taxed on that. We were just, like, putting our IBM stock into, like, a joint venture in exchange for partnership interests. So, like, if if I buy a a noun, I'm putting my ETH into a now nouns are doing us, a different story. But back in the day, you know, before they were a wrapped entity, you know, arguably, if I put Ethan, I wasn't taxed on that. Now I have this partnership interest. And then when shit happens inside the partnership, like, partnership sells ours, sells its ETH or whatever, that the gain or loss inside has to get allocated to the partners according to their percentage interests.
Like, no one is doing that. Like, literally no one. Like, it's not even possible. Like, even if you have, like, the the the treasury address, which, like, of course, you do. It's it's on a public blockchain. Like, you're not gonna be able to figure out what your percentage interest was, what the partnership's basis was in those assets. So we kind of have this world of, like, noncompliant tax entities out there, which is, like, kinda wild. Interesting. Yeah. No one no one so I don't have, like, any answers. I'm just, like, pointing it out. Like, no one really knows how to treat those things.
Speaker 11 Interesting stuff. There's a lot of loopholes in that way that seem like they're well, not loopholes, but maybe, like, things that haven't been really articulated correctly, it seems, that just kind of exist, but they're in this, like, uncertain phase of, like, how they're explained. Yeah. I guess that's the layman's way I would try to explain it myself. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. This has been really informative. Honestly, I think that one of the biggest things really that I take from this is how it seems like it's just so uncertain that I wouldn't imagine that anyone would a 100% know that they're doing this right if they weren't an expert, like like yourself.
Speaker 11 Wild because the IRS is probably like, look. I don't even know what I'm supposed to be doing, and you don't know what you're supposed to be doing. So
Speaker 3 Well yeah. And that that should hopefully, that offers a little bit of comfort. Like, the, you know, the IRS is not I'm not saying, like, oh, you know, go evade taxes. Right? I'm I'm actually just saying, like, I'd Right. Right. Right. Hopefully, you'll get some grace if you just kind of use good faith effort. You know, if you wanna be compliant. I'm not like you know? Like, you'll get some grace if you use good faith effort. You take sort of you know, you take reasonable positions. You consistently apply them. Look. We don't have any guidance. So, like, you you know, like, the worst the worst that should happen if you take kind of reasonable efforts is, you know, maybe the IRS disagrees and you owe, like, the tax and interest. But, like, penalties are kind of hard to imagine in that situation.
Brian Right? Because, like, you're not
Brian no one knows what the answer is.
Speaker 3 So, you know, why yeah. It doesn't really behoove them to, like, impose penalties.
Speaker 11 So interesting. It really it just shows how early that this whole entire thing is because it's still just being figured out by the agency that designed to, you know, ultimately get a cut of every single piece. And, you know, if if it's still unclear to this point I mean, like, I mean, it's not that it's unclear, but it's just I don't know. There needs
Speaker 3 be some Unwieldy. Unwieldy.
Speaker 11 I really appreciate you coming through and and, putting that together and presenting on that so concisely. And, also, like, you have a very unique way of, like, infusing layman's terms and humor into the talk too, which is really valuable, I think, for people, because it really is, like I said when we started, a topic that is so, like, misunderstood, I think, by a lot of people. So
Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah. My pleasure. My DMs are always open. You just might have to wait a few months, but I'll get get to them eventually if anyone has any questions.
Speaker 11 I appreciate you, Jason. Thank you for coming through today and for explaining everything, and, thank you for the presentation.
Speaker 3 Thanks for having me.
Speaker 11 I appreciate you. Gonna roll thank you. Thank you so much. Take care, my man. We'll roll to the next talk. It looks like we did spill over just a little bit. It also looks like the lights in this room are getting quite dark. So hopefully, you guys can still see me. We'll take a sixty second break. We'll be back. I see Ben and Matt and Jared. You guys are here backstage. We'll bring you on up in just a moment. Thank you guys for being here, and, I'm stoked to chat. The next talk is on the topic of long term perspectives for digital art markets, navigating changing conditions. I'm really excited for this talk, and we'll go ahead and we'll dive in in just a minute. So let me run my special, media here, and then we'll dive in.
Speaker 11 We're back. Alright. Let's dive in, guys. Appreciate you. Let's bring you on up. Boom. What's good? You guys hear me?
Speaker 11 How are you guys doing? No complaints. How about you? Doing pretty good. It's nice to put, like, an IRL face to, these names. I really appreciate you guys being here, and, we can go ahead and dive right in. I appreciate your patience as well because I know we spilled over just a tiny bit. Like I said earlier, this topic of the talk is long term perspectives for digital art markets, navigating changing conditions. So, ultimately, I'm really excited for this talk because as we all know, the space has gone through a lot of change over the past, like, four or five years. Right? Now 2021, I think most of us were you guys all here for the 2021 uproar of NFTs? Yes. Yep.
Speaker 11 So, basically, we all know that the space has changed a lot since then. A lot of crazy things has happened since then. Overall, the ups and downs are all part of it, and it's obviously part of any space. But what I wanna really convey in this talk and ask you guys about is how you feel we're headed. Like, where are we going next, and how does it impact the way that we act now? So one question, I guess, to really start this off is where do you think that we're at as a space right now? Like, how do you view the space today versus back in, you know, 2021? We had a lot of just intense success. But when you're going to market today, whether as a collector or a builder or, you know, founder, what do you think is important for people to understand, and how are you viewing the current market?
And we can go ahead and we can start with Ben. Again, I appreciate you guys being here and still just have it.
Ben So first of all, thanks for, having me here. Second of all, I would say I mean, right off the bat, the very first thing is the market's realistic. Right? We might complain about it, but it's it's more realistic. You know, the market in '21 was very unrealistic. Right? There was no reason some of these passes to clubs or, you know, cartoon PFPs should be worth 50 or a 100 each. Right? You know, a lot of people have talked about how do you denominate things. Right? There was a big debate on it just the other day. Right? Dollars, Ethereum. But I think long term, we are starting to see that that art, even PFPs, ends up denominated in the native currency of the people that are using it. Right? So if you were an early Ethereum, Maxi, and you've got 10,000,000 Ethereum, you're probably denominating an Ethereum.
Right? But if you're somebody that's buying art with, you know, cash from your day job and you're paid in USD, then, ultimately, it's gonna end up settling back to USD. Right? You can't just spend magic Internet money forever, right, because your money that's coming in that you're buying the art with is in dollars. So I think where we're at today is it's probably not as bad as a lot of people say it is, and it's not as good as it was in '21. It's just a much more realistic market. If you if you go out with a, you know, crappy low effort product, you're not gonna make millions of dollars nowadays. Nowadays. But we're still seeing good projects and good products, good art, sell. You know? People are still buying it. People are still selling it. It's just not irrational exuberance. So that's my 2¢.
Speaker 11 Nice. I loved it. I love that perspective, actually. Matt, what do you think? Like, how do you feel about the market currently?
Speaker 9 Yeah. Thanks for having me as well. I think kind of way that I've seen a shift in understanding of what digital art is or can be. Right? Like, our current market trends, obviously, we're non hype cycle, which to me, I think, to more traditional tech, it's just kind of that under that timeline of long term adoption and understanding. And I think it goes in a couple of ways, like, what kind of value am I getting out of this, and what is this going to do to the landscape of technology and the world as I know it? Like, that's super vague, but I think you're seeing it used to be that when I would say something like, hey. I'm I'm building something that represents an NFT. It had this, like, poor taste in its mouth because I said NFT and somebody that didn't understand it.
You've seen that term shift to more digital art lately. And as I say digital art, I talk about it in, like, a physical representation, there's a, like, light that somebody is able to kinda connect between the two and understand that, like, there is more of an acceptance of that. I just think that that's the direction in which we're going. It takes slow rotation to get there, but, eventually, I think that you're just gonna see a lot more people understanding digital art being not just the value of currency as it ties to crypto, but also kind of value in terms of an asset class.
Speaker 11 That makes sense? Yeah. Absolutely. Like, you know and I'd love to get Jared's perspective on that bit, especially on how we kind of changed the term to be more about digital art now in terms of art versus NFT even though, you know, NFT is the base level tech. That's really what it is is an NFT. But anything could be an NFT that's not art as well. So, like, I think conflating the two is a bit of an interesting thing. And back to what Ben said as well, the market is much more realistic. That's for damn sure because, like, I mean, it's crazy. Restaurants, people are coming up with an idea, and they're like, yeah. Let's make it into an NFT in 2021. And, like, they raised $5,000,000 in five minutes. And it's it's silly to think about. But, Jared, so, like, going to you, you know, you've been building eight NAP.
And from the perspective of a builder of a platform specifically, how are you looking at the current market and the shift in ways people are viewing NFTs now, differently, versus back, obviously, like we are referring to? How do you feel about that, and where are your eyes for the upcoming market, and how are you navigating things?
Speaker 4 Great question. And as as the other two indicated, thank you for having me here. Of course. It's a true honor and and amazing to be alongside these two amazing gentlemen. When it comes to building, I like what Ben said because the market is the market. There's you know, no matter how big we think we are, like, we can't influence the market. We're we're not gonna materially move it. So for me, I think it would be negligent to say it's kind of a tough market. Sentiment's kind of low. You know, the Bitcoin, fear and greed is pegged to to fear right now, and altcoins are even, you know, even more in the dumps, not just percentage wise, but also, you're hearing a lot of things that are like, are we gonna have an alt season? Is it that?
So I I think sentiment's really low, and I I wanna acknowledge that it is tough to be building now. And I really enjoyed the last two years, to be honest, because the the people who have stuck around and show up I mean, I won't say who, but I had a call with somebody this morning. And the, you know, the the resounding, you know, point that kept coming up is the people who showed up over the last two years, I think, are gonna be really positioned well for the next bull run. I I believe there's gonna be a bull run. I'm not gonna tell you that, I'm smart enough to tell you when it will happen. My wife tells me I'm I'm overly optimistic when it comes to how I think the market will move.
But, you know, all joking aside, I think that the people who are here and the people who have survived, both collectors, artists, and builders, we're setting the foundation for the next leg up. And the the passion and the the fortitude that we we have, is is really gonna establish a a good foundation for moving forward. Not and it it it comes in a number of different ways. One, there's we're gonna have a little bit of scars from from the lessons learned. Right? But more than that, I think we're gonna be able to recognize, I think, people with good intent. Right? There's you know, the whole phrase grifter is there for a reason. And, you know, we'll be able to recognize those a little bit earlier, but more than that, we'll be a beacon of light for the new entrants and the people who want to come in and, participate in our, community.
And it's the only way that I I believe that the the space overall will begin to expand. Right? Like, if it doesn't expand, then we're just in the PDP world, and somebody's gonna end up with all the JPEGs, probably bat soup yum, and the rest of us are gonna be, you know, left holding, whatever little we have left. I truly believe that's not the case, to be clear. The the pie, so to speak, is going to expand and bringing on good, caring, and I'll call reputable individuals is the key to to sustain growth, and that's largely what I'm focused on.
Speaker 11 I really appreciate the way you put that. I also love that you're infusing me with the hopium of a future bull run. Just gets me so stoked. But, no, I do believe that a bull run is inevitable. I mean, like, it's just about us seeing, like, and kind of looking at, like, why did people come here in the first place? And it seems that I think the market always attracts people in for financial reasons first. And then if you look at just trends in general, and I'd love your guys' perspectives on this as well, The trends of just anything in the past that blew up and then ended up kind of fading, and then it slowly grows back. It's like the same chart. It's like boom, and then it's like back down, and then it slowly goes up. It's not another straight up line.
It's just more of a gradual growth from there. It's actual realistic growth, like Ben was saying. Like, in these markets, though, most of the time, people are attracted in for financial reason first. So, like, when the internet.com bubble happened, people were like, holy shit. This is the next, like, huge thing because it's like, you could buy any website on anything. It's like, you know, any type of website could potentially make you rich. Like, tennismatch.com. Like you know what I mean? So it's like, realize, okay. I'm attracted into this. I'm attracted into the Internet and all of this stuff. It's gonna be a big deal. But then eventually, that bubble kind of pops, but it doesn't mean that the Internet went away. So, like, now I feel like we're in that kind of in between phase with web three where, like like, in an earlier talk, we were discussing how web three doesn't even have, like, a proper definition.
It's kind of this esoteric idea, but we all know in, like, kind of what it means. We all know, like, what web three refers to, but it's so early on that people don't even really have, like, a fixed understanding of it. So I'm curious on, like, how you guys feel about where we're gonna be in, like, a year from now. And, like, what is going to be the next thing that would bring in another massive wave of people into the space to actually care about creating using these types of rails that web three offers? Let's start with Ben again, and we can go back around too.
Ben So I'll by saying I I've talked about this years ago when we were trying to define web three. It was probably four years ago I was giving a talk on it, I said we're in web 2.5. Right? Like, there's some web the three things we're doing, but then you go to an old web two website to access your smart contract or you go to Discord to discuss the community or so I like to say we're in web 2.5. Right? Wait. Native web three tools aren't fully there yet. We're we're still using, you know, email to communicate or, you know, the broken Twitter chat. So, I will say this. When it comes to bull runs and it comes to market downslopes and trying to figure out who the winners are gonna be is difficult. Right? Some of the highest valued companies in the.comcom bubble were not the ones that survived.
Right? And picking the winners is difficult. So I think we will see a bull run, but it'll be a select bull run. Right? Most of the ICOs aren't still around. Right? Altcoin season, we can look at a lot of shitcoins that don't exist anymore. Right? There's a lot of PFP projects that are gonna go to zero. That doesn't mean one or two doesn't just take off exponentially. Right? Maybe it's crypto punks make it and, you know, something else doesn't. Maybe it's not. Maybe it's something we're not even thinking of. So I do think when there is a bull run, it's not a rising tide lifts all ships. Right? It'll be selective. There'll be some things that take off and a lot of things that go to zero, most things that go to zero. The other thought I had is as the space grows, right, and the space is growing, Jared alluded to it.
Right? Some of the people that stuck around I was in Martha this year, saw Jared there, and there were more people there this year than there were last year. Right? The market's still very small in comparison to the size of the overall potential market. So it can grow in fifths and and in strange ways, and still, overall, we can see growth. And in certain sectors, it can feel like there's not growth. Now how art interacts with the crypto market as a whole is a whole different discussion, but I do think we're seeing maturity, particularly in the art market in the sense that five years ago, there was just NFT art. Right? I mean, there was pieces on SuperAir. There were shared contracts, but it was all kind of NFT art. Now we're looking at it, and there's sort of consensus institutional art. Right?
We saw some of the stuff at Art Basel in Miami. There is, you know, demo scene art. Right? Like, what if I could? Matt was talking about that, you know, there's there's firsts. You know? There's there's interesting things that people are doing that are pushing the boundaries. There's historical art now. Right? We can go back and look at NFTs from 2020 and 2017. There's emerging artists, and then there's unique art, right, which I won't steal some of what we're gonna talk about tomorrow, but there are things that, you know, you can do with NFTs and display technology that you can't do with a static piece of art or with a a painting or even a web two piece of digital art. So I think that shows the maturity of the space, that all those are categories that we can quickly think of artists or art pieces that fit into those.
And the last thing I'll say, which we'll probably also get to down the road, is people are becoming more discerning about the canvas that the artist painted on. Right? So people know that if you put your NFTs on AWS, you might lose them all someday. Right? IPFS is better, and maybe Arweave is better than that, and Fully On Chain is even better than that. And that wasn't even a discussion five years ago. So that also shows me that the space is maturing. So a lot of different random thoughts, but, hopefully, there was some cohesiveness there.
Speaker 11 No. That's, like, that's actually a really, really important point, especially when looking forward, like, the topic of the talk, you know, like, how we're thinking about where we're headed. The maturity of the market is something that you really can measure in that regard. So, like, Matt, like, how do you feel that the market's heading as of right now, like, in, say, you know, the question of being a year from now? Like, where do you feel like the priority of collectors will be? Where do you feel like the energy of what people care about will be? And for you personally, do you feel like the market's matured? Do you feel like that we're seeing, like, more interest in certain areas versus others based off of how, you know, people used to buy anything just because it was the fact of it being an NFT could be that it could make you money?
Like, at at one point, people were like, I don't get this stuff, but I realize that people are making money from it, so they're just buying it. Now people are like, well, where is it hosted? How is it working? Like, so, yeah, what are your thoughts on the maturity of the market, and where do you think we'll be in a year from now?
Speaker 9 Great question. I think it's been natural for the market to mature in the same way that I think I've matured in my journey in the market because you just kinda go along with it. But, like, coming in in 2021 and seeing the massive hype around everything, like, I bought things that I did not like purely to profit from it. Right? And then turns out that I got attached to it and wouldn't sell it and realized that I had more of a passion for collecting or maybe was being forced to collect as a result of that because I couldn't sell it. And then, you know, hit rock bottom in terms of losing things from a profitability perspective, and that's when I really started to respect the space that we live in. Right?
I started to understand the things that I enjoyed and the artists that I like to connect with and the connection with the creativity here over the downtimes and, like, roughing through, you know, the turn in the market, and that's where it became really interesting for me. And so I started to mature as a person, through that kind of forced loss, I guess, in a lot of ways, but saw a lot of the people that stuck around and the founders that continued to build start to create platforms or products or art that kind of reflected that maturity as well. And I think you're seeing that trend continue. I think more people are starting to come back. You you alluded to this before where it's kind of this, like, boom then bust then a slow gradual back uphill to where we were kind of market trends that you've seen in a lot of different things over time is happening now.
I'm probably a little bit more biased toward the bridge between physical or traditional art and digital art because that's kind of where I've focused my attention, bringing some of my skills in the workshop to kind of reality in the digital realm and creating some works that people have have done digitally. So that's where my mind is when I think about where we'll be or where we could be in a year. And some of that, like, building mentality of who are the people that have stuck around, and what are they building, why are they building it? How can it be applied to people that are still here? So that's very vague, but kinda, like, dive into a couple things that I've been thinking of that are more specific is kind of I've seen a lot of physical representation of digital art.
ACK just did a good, piece of that with this new circus collection where there are physical pieces and also a digital piece to kinda tie along with it. I think that that advances as tech advances. The thing that I've been thinking through a lot is, like, Meta Ray Ban kind of partnership that's going on and the ease of access to, like, AR. How is that gonna be something that could be applied to the digital art world? And some of what brought me into the space is that when I own a piece, I own it. And, like, the more custom it is, the more attached to it I am. So, like, a one of one is more important to me potentially than, like, a one of a thousand.
If I owned a digital piece of something that would allow me to see a physical piece by using something that's like AR in a unique way to me because I owned it would be something that I would find, like, really interesting and a cool way to kinda tie those spaces together. And then at large, I mean, platforms have platforms have a tough spot to be in for this, like, space. Right? They have to be a business in order to survive. And so staying true to the ethos of, you know, Web three and crypto versus having to focus on revenue is a hard balance to navigate. I would love to see how somebody might attack, like like, ad space. I hate ads. Like, I've always paid to not have to view ads, but I'm being forced to view ads even though I'm paying not to.
And now it'd be really interesting if instead of I paid enough money, could I see a rotation of digital art that's sponsored by a platform as opposed to having to, I don't know, see an ad for Maybelline for the fifteenth thousandth time. I don't I don't know if that's too close to selling out, but it is starting to kinda bridge to more of a massive audience. And I'm curious if that's the direction in which the space starts to go in order to, like, elevate or, like, massively promote artists, because there's gonna be more and more noise as people start to break into the space in a in a respective way.
Speaker 4 I I will jump in real quick. I like what Matt's saying. I don't want more ads either just for the record, but I I do believe that this what I believe is a prolonged bear market is forcing platforms and other builders into being true business people. I mean, I I'll I'm very open about it. My first Ethereum NFT was the proof pass. And, you know, in that mint, it just generated, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars, right out the gate and allowed for these large, treasuries and, you know, war chests, so to speak, for builders. And anybody who's released basically since that time, you know, has had to have a high level of business acumen to survive. And
Speaker 8 and I think it's creating for these, like, really lean and efficient,
Speaker 4 you know, operations, so to speak. And, you know, unfortunately, like, things like known origins and other, I think, are falling victim. I'm not saying they're bad business people by any stretch. I don't I don't want that to be implied, but I think they fell victim of being too good too early. Right? So, you know, as as was commented earlier about, like, the, you know, the .com boom, some of the more highly valued companies ended up going away. I think you'll start to see the thinning out of the crowd and the the real the people who have connections and business acumen and have become, like, true builders will have some longevity in a sense that will be respected in hindsight. Right? I mean, there's that famous picture of, like, Jeff Bezos. You know?
Now he's sitting on a $500,000,000 yacht, but he was sitting at, like or a, you know, a folding table with, like, a spray painted Amazon sign behind him. And I think that there's there's something romantic about that journey. Don't get me wrong. But there's also something to be admired in the sense that, like, he didn't have this five star office right out the gate. And and I I hope to see a little bit of that kind of grit, so to speak, in our in our space. So that way, it creates sustainability and longevity.
Speaker 11 So many points that are incredible. One that I wanna start with, Jared, I wanna ask you. Like, as far as, like, being a founder in this space, building a platform, like Matt said, how you are in business. Right? And now you're saying as well, like, we in this space, we used to be able to really just kind of try stuff, and most of it was very successful. Like, if not all of it at one point was just, like, everything was hitting. Everyone was winning. And, like, you would launch something. It would instantly sell out, and people were winning. It it was just a different kind of energy because there was so much speculation and, you know, and, like, the space obviously matures and grows. And now you have to be a better business person in order to really succeed in this game.
You can't just launch and expect that you're gonna sell out instantly. You have to get better at telling your story, explaining your mission, letting people buy into your vision by explaining it at scale. As a founder and a builder, I'm curious, like, how are you navigating that right now with your platform? And do you see that advertising within the crypto space now that X is really ramping up their advertising initiatives? I'm personally getting more outreach from people on the x team telling me, hey. Let's run ads. Like, I don't know if you guys have also with your pages or businesses. But I'm curious, like, how you're looking at it, how you're really working things with your current business and platform, and do you think that advertising will become more of a, a predictable means that people will go down, with their businesses in web three?
Speaker 4 So I will say for eight and up, that is not in our, in our revenue model. It's just I don't think that we're at scale or or could even bring value to anybody. But for web three, for sure I mean, one the things I love that Matt brought up was this this concept of the Meta AR. I mean, I bought the the Meta Ray Bans just so I could play around with it because I true like, I had zero desire to have the Apple I don't even remember what they're called. Right? The VisionPRO. Sorry. Because it it felt clunky to me. Like, I'm not gonna carry around a battery pack, but the the Ray Ban ones were
Speaker 4 to me. And I think that you know, is it gonna be the tipping point for scalability? No. But is it gonna give us it could be one of the the the components to it. And I bring that up because as these AR and VR realms become more of a future, could you see a pop up ad for something before you start going through an entire super rare collection or Artblocks collection?
Speaker 4 I probably could see that. Like, are you gonna have a pop up ad on OpenSea before you go try to buy something or do your tax loss harvesting? You know? Probably. Right? Like, I do foresee it coming to some degree, especially on the blockchain rails where there's, like, proof of person, you know, on the horizon where, you know, you're gonna be able to spend ads in a more efficient manner. And that's actually something I'm looking at. Was like, once those rails are in place, yeah, I'd love to advertise to target audiences instead of just having, you know, a blanket, you know, billboard in Times Square during NFP NYC and hoping that people can, see it, or I'm using it as, like, a a postable moment. So ad revenue, I think, is something that's for sure coming, you know, not for me per se, but I do think it's absolutely Part of it because, I guess, we're talking about the pie expanding.
One of the things that's really intriguing to me is, you know, I I use this analogy all the time is I love coffee shop art. Right? But the problem with coffee shop art is that your the the amount of eyes on it is very, very small. But in web three or 2.5, as Ben says, we are learning how to scale, and these sort of geographic constraints are now completely eradicated. So as the the pie begins to grow, as more eyes start to see the art art's a very emotional thing. Well, let's be honest about this. Right? Like, you see a few I bought art just because I I love it. I mean, I have a piece on Tezos that was, like, costing me 10 Tez. Grand Tezos is a hell of a lot more expensive back then. But the point being is, you know, it's still one of my favorite pieces.
I don't even know who the artist is. I can't even tell you. I should know this for for story purposes, I but I think it's one the most beautiful pieces, and I just bought it because I happen to run into it. That is the equivalent of, like, the coffee shop art to me, not Tezos, but that piece specifically. And my point is that, like, as more people discover it, as as the space grows, there's gonna be more discoverability. You have a bigger space, and I think as you get those more eyes, things the the punch line here is, like, more things like advertisements and proof of person will scale in a way that I think that we haven't quite that longed.
Speaker 11 Really, really good points there. So now when it comes to the advertising side of things, like, I think one point that I wanna make back and then I wanna go over to Ben. One point is that with advertising in crypto, in the past, it's been very difficult to do so because, first, there's really restrictions on most platforms for advertising stuff like crypto. But now with, like, the administration in The United States becoming more lax, Trump launched a meme coin. Like, you know, things are different, especially with x. Elon bought x. Things changed, and now you can advertise pretty much almost anything that you want to within reasonability. From the way that I'm looking at it, it opens up the ability to advertise crypto things. And in the past, though, too, you really wouldn't advertise your upcoming NFT launch because it just wasn't necessary, and it also wasn't organic.
Like, you don't you would get a lot of hate more so on it than you would love from what I saw. You would see those scammy ads, like, when you open up Etherscan, and it's like, buy this, you know, ICO. And it's like, you would never buy that because it's just probably a scam. But now I think I'm starting to see more advertising that seems to be really actually working on me at least. So, like, specifically, retargeting ads from pages that I've already interacted with. So, like, eight a half art, for example, if eight and a half served me an ad about the current live project, from whoever it might be, maybe it's an artist that I love like Macbeth, I would be like, oh, that's cool. Because now we're also seeing the algorithm on x really kind of diminishing, in my opinion.
And I believe it's because they're ramping up their advertising efforts, so they want people to advertise more. The same thing happened to Facebook back in, like, 2015 when, like, there wasn't that many people really running Facebook ads, it felt like. Then all of a sudden, would be able to you'd typically be able to post on Facebook, get a lot of reach. That started to dwindle, and then you start seeing more, like, hey. Boost this post. Boost this post. And I'm starting to see that now on x. Starting to see reach go down, but I'm starting to see boost post opportunities pop up. So I'm curious. Like, do you guys first of all, are you seeing the same thing as I am? And second, do you think that there will be more opportunity that now we'll see, like, people acting like treating these things like a true business, running ads for these things, optimizing for conversions?
What implications would that have on the space that we all know?
Ben So I've thought about this a little bit. So on one hand I'll tell a couple stories, and then I'll tell you my thought on ads. So on one hand, I know exactly what Jared's talking about. The the sort of grit startup mentality. I remember it was in '22. I won't say where I was or who I was, but I remember being in some rooms and chatting with people and telling my wife, this is really cool. Do you know who that is? Someday, this space is gonna grow to the point where you can't just walk into the room and chat with these guys and talk to these people, and and this will be harder. You'll have to go through someone's secretary, and they'll be the head of x y business. And and it's already starting to get there.
I've noticed in the last year or two even, you know, there are times when I've gone to things and somebody comes up and gives me a hug and says, hey. How are doing? You know? And somebody says, how do you know that person? You know? And I go, I don't know. We've known each other for a long time. You know? You and you don't have some of that self referential, you know, knowledge, but you can already see the space is starting to grow and become more successful. Right? And as it achieves market success, it's gonna look like every other market that's successful. Right? And you can argue if that's good or bad. Right? Is that is that market success? Is that late stage capitalism? Is it all turning into dollars? That's not for me. But I will say this.
If you look at the most successful revenue model in history, what is it? Right? It's ads. Right? What does Google serve up? It's ads. What is so, of course, we're gonna see ads. Right? And then if you dovetail in, right, you've got blockchain technology on one hand. And then what's the other thing, right, that we talk about all the time? AI. Right? And the two are almost, like, two sides of the same coin. Right? On one hand, AI is very centralizing, but it can also give you those targeted ads. Right? When we start talking VR and XR and AR, you can start having targeted personalized ads that are only shown to you. And then on the other hand, while on one hand, AI can be bad, dangerous, intrusive, whatever, right, blockchain can be the opposing side of that. Right? It can it can provide cryptographic proof of identity.
It can provide proof of personhood, civil resistance. And so on one hand, you can see them as sort of fighting each other. And on the other hand, if I if I'm someone that has a great ad platform, I wanna make revenue. I wanna put ads in front of your face. I can do that and know that you're a real person, right, and and know what you've done on the blockchain, know who you are, know so, yeah, I think it's absolutely inevitable that we're gonna see targeted advertising, and you can get more for your dollar. Right? If you know that you're putting the ad in front of the person you wanna put it front of, and it's a real person, not a bot. So like it or not, yeah, I think that's the way we're heading. That's where the revenue is. That's where the financial model is.
This isn't gonna achieve market success if it's just for fun, unfortunately. As much as I've been in this space for over a decade and I love the decentralization and I love the emerging artists and the emerging technologies from a financial market success standpoint, you're probably gonna see ads. You're gonna see targeted ads. You're gonna see personalized ads. That's the world we live in. And so, yes, it's gonna come to this space just like every other space. However, this space will be different because we've got cryptographic proof of identity. You know, you know that I'm not a bot. You know that I've got art sitting in my wallet. So it'll be interesting, but, yeah, that's the way we're going, I think.
Speaker 11 Interesting indeed. Matt, what do you think on, like, how, you know, as a builder in the space and as an artist as well, like, do you see that you would ever want to advertise your art projects that you would launch, or would you see that if you were receiving ads from, say, like, an a platform or, like, an artist, how would you feel about that? And do you feel like it like, does it resonate, or does it make sense, I guess? Because I feel like it's just foreign for crypto ads to work in my mind, and I'm sure they work in many ways. But just from someone that went through 2021 and all that time, everything was so organic. It was not a place where I would buy stuff because I saw an ad. But now it seems to be changing, and Ben made some really, really good points there as well. So I'm curious your your take on all of it.
Speaker 9 I think there's two sides of the coin, and I live on both of them, which is which is weird to say, but, like, I'll just use targeted ads as an example. Sometimes I will think something, and my phone pumps an ad to me the next day. And in my mind, I'm like, Jesus, I didn't even type that out. How on earth is this happening? Like, that's a scary level of tech. But the next thought is I do need that, and I'm really actually kinda happy that it pushed in my direction. So if it was, if there's gonna be targeted advertisement or an assessment of buyer behavior based on wallets, I hope I get to pick my wallet or else I'm gonna get some really weird stuff, which they're here for. I think that that would actually encourage me personally to probably spend more money on digital art.
I do a good amount of, like, just exploring, right, on platforms to find new artists or things that I like to kinda speak to what Jared was saying. It's my version of a digital coffee shop sometimes, especially on Tezos, to kinda just click through and see things that are kind of underneath 10 that I like that I wanna just be able to go back and look at or share to my audience. So if there was it's counter to a lot of the way people think about ads. But if it was art coming through to me and I could just click and buy, I would probably spend more money on art. So there's value to somebody creating that system. For me personally, it sounds like it would be a sellout, right, if I just wanted to go pump my art to somebody and expect for it to sell in that way.
But I come from a traditional, you know, business background myself. And quite frankly, if that's what expands the audience and makes money to continue building bigger, cooler, better things, the tools to do it, then I would probably capitalize on it in a way that wasn't feeling, too intrusive, I guess.
Speaker 11 Interesting points. Really, really good points. Like, Jared, going over to you, do you feel like, as far as right now, like, the way that the market is and the way we're going, where where else can there be an edge? What other edges exist for a platform or for an artist or a creator or a builder looking to get more eyes in a space where there has been less liquidity, at least, you know, like, literally viewing the metrics, there's less liquidity. People feel more stretched based off of how I've surveyed. That can also vary. You can survey different groups. But I'm curious, like, from your perspective and, experience, do you feel, what do you feel is the best edge right now for a person building in this space?
Speaker 4 I'm not gonna give away all the secret sauce, but I I will speak in some generalities. I think that what Ben alluded to is being in the room with people who when you look to the future five, ten, twenty years from now, you'll kind of be like, holy shit. How did I have that opportunity? I believe we're one to two degrees of separation from anybody you want in this space. And I think that that is a blessing, and that represents only a portion of time that that will be available. So utilizing that and not to say just to be a DM hound or whatever, but I think that there's a unique opportunity, to be able to connect with people that you either aspire if you're an artist, aspire to have as a collector, or if you're a collector that you aspire to collect and to be able to connect with people in a deep and meaningful fashion.
It's a it's a very big focus of mine. I think that the, you know, Derek Edwards talks about, network assets. If you can unlock the ability to have network assets and you're seeing it with you know, I heard the the earlier, you know, guests talk about Doomedale. XCopy is the perfect example of this. Network assets has the the ability to, like, hyper excel individuals in a way that, yeah, I think is unfathomable even to us because we haven't we're truly only it's the tip of the iceberg. It's the proverbial scratching the surface. And if we're able to unlock that in a in a meaningful way, the the concept of communities are going to be rewritten, and the history books are gonna look back on this and do a bunch of case studies on it. So I think network aspects and communities are and and do things like scale the unscalable.
I I I if I told you how many DMs I write on a daily basis, either to people I know or reaching out to people who I don't know yet, it'd blow your mind. I just think that I feel you know, this is this is about, like, longevity in the space. I think if you're here with the right intentions and you're looking ten to twenty years out, I think it was Redbeard who talked about you know, he's sitting at the table with, you know, the modern day Picasso and and Basquiat and dot dot dot dot. I truly believe that that's the proper analogy. We're, you know, we're we're living in a time where the the the access to to the future, you know, innovators or future the the what the history books will will identify as, you know, innovators. We we're we're dealing with them now.
So I always challenge everybody to to reach out, connect with somebody in an authentic way, and do it in a way that is meaningful to you and meaningful to the person on the other side.
Ben So I thought about this a little bit, and I'm kind of a weird guy. Right? Because I've created, collected, curated, done a lot of back end things. So I had a lot of exposure to the space, and I thought about where are the rooms for you know, where's the room for efficiencies. Right? Where are the inefficiencies in the space? Where can you gain a competitive edge? And I'm not the you know, unlike Jared, I don't I just don't have the, financial need to protect anything. So I'll just spit it all out, some of the things I've thought about. You know, where can platforms get better? Where where opportunities in the space? So discoverability, right, is huge. I've got hundreds, if not thousands of pieces across all sorts of different chains, different marketplaces, and just seeing what I have.
Or even as an artist where I've, you know, put things out there, and sometimes it was on a shared contract or it was, you know, cocreated with somebody or it was, by me in collaboration with so and so for you know? And I forget. You know? I was telling somebody one time that I did one of the forever supper pieces for async art, you know, and I forget about it sometimes. They're no longer around. It's hard to see it. It was me in collaboration with some so discoverability is a huge issue. When somebody cracks that nut, if it's crackable. Right? Think about security and storage in our space. Right? I've got my art across lots of different wallets, both things I've created and collected. You know? Sometimes there's artist proofs that are in some other wallet. So just where do you store it?
How do you keep it secure? Longevity. Right? What how do I if I have a collection of hundreds or thousands of pieces and I was to be hit by a bus in five years, how does my wife know? How do my kids know? Which pieces are, you know, valuable, not? What's the context around those pieces? Why did I collect them? Why did I love them? Why did I not love them? And then traditional art deals with this. Right? And they they're still working on it. So sort of legacy and longevity, decay and loss. Right? Pieces get lost because wallets get lost. Wallets get stolen. You know, the metadata decays and disappears. Right? We talked about that. Valuation. Right? So let's say I I get hit by a bus in five years and and my wife needs to go value some of these pieces.
And let's say some of them are, you know, twenty twenty pieces by, you know, artists that are less active now, but they were early crypto art. They're on a shared contract. You know? You can't go off of web offers. You can't go off of recent sales on some of those pieces. So who do you trust to value those pieces? How do people know who to go to? And then we'll talk about, I'm sure, tomorrow, some display tech. Right? I I had a whole long blog post about this one time. I I took this piece that was 300 megabytes, and it was detailed, and it was, you know, I mastered it in HDR, and so it had this nice dynamic range. But it it needed a particular you know, you need to see it in four k on a high end monitor with enough brightness and enough contrast, and that's not how it's displayed, right, on most marketplaces, let alone on a phone screen.
So we've got a long way to go when it comes to display, display tech, display of what it can do. Right? How do you know if it's a eleven fifty five or seven twenty one or seventy one sixty or, you know, natively? How do you know if it's fully on chain natively in a marketplace? So there are a ton of areas where we've got a lot of room to mature and where there's a lot of edges that could be captured. Different edges could be captured by different companies. Right? I don't think one person's gonna crack all of these things. So there's so much opportunity in the space, and it tells me how early we are in the grand scope of things that there are all those, you know, inefficient edges in our space. And that also is what excites me. Right?
Like, that's gonna be really cool when all those things start falling into place. I might be 70 by then, but it'll still be really cool, and that's what I think is exciting.
Speaker 4 I think the wallet yeah. I agree with you. I have so many damn wallets across so many different chains. It's it's bizarre to me how nobody's aggregated it to to, like, one centralized place. And it's I think it's it's critical for onboarding. You know? I mean, even if you look at eleven fifty five, there's, like, so many different variants. There's an eleven fifty five c. There's an eleven fifty five t. Like, dude, these are, like you you you start saying this to somebody who's who's newer to the space, and they just look at their their eyes glaze over, and they get so bored. It's like, you don't even get to the art part where you're like, oh, look at this really cool thing. And I think you've been hit on something really important. There's, you know, even the native currency that, you know, OpenSea brought up of, like, u USD versus Ethereum.
I And just to get somebody Ethereum to buy some of this stuff as or Bitcoin as Ben would probably prefer, is is just to be able to say, like, it's it's it's crazy to think about the the amount of hoops just to get some art versus, you know, my coffee shop analogy, just swiping your card.
Ben So something interesting too, Jared, that we've talked about before is when art is physical, some of these things are intuitive. Right? You know if it's a really big piece. Right? I mean, you go into a museum and it's a eight foot by four foot piece, and it's powerful and it's big. Right? You know if it's on if it's painted on the side of a if it's a Banksy that's spray painted on the side of a brick wall versus a Rembrandt or a you know, you can you can tell. Is this on canvas? Is this on is this oil? Is this acrylic? Is it big? Is it small? Is it a study? Is it a all those things are intrinsic physically. You see it, and you can kinda tell. You know? Is it a copy? Is it an original? Is it a is it mass produced?
Are there lots of copies of it? You can see them all sitting in one room. You know? Or you know that Andy Warhol Studio produced 500 prints of that or 10,000. Those things aren't self evident on the blockchain. I just by looking at an image on Twitter or even on OpenSea, I can't tell how many pixels it is, how big is it, how detailed is it. I can't tell if there's a thousand additions quickly and intuitively. I can't tell if it's a one of one. I can't tell if it's a one of one of x or and so, like I said, I can't tell where it's stored, what the canvas is. Right? Is it fully on chain? Is it stored on AWS? You can't even easily tell, you know, is this on Ethereum? Is it on Bitcoin? Is it so that's an entire nut that has to be cracked.
Right? Those things, because it's digital, it's abstracted. They're not evident to us physically in the way we're used to. And so somebody's gonna have to figure out, as you're alluding to, Jared, how do you how do you get that to a newbie? This is this is more scarce, less scarce, more detailed, less detailed, more work, less work, more valuable, more popular, less popular when you can't see guests standing in a gallery all staring at the Mona Lisa or not looking at a piece. Yeah. It's exciting because it's full of opportunity.
Speaker 4 It's funny you bring this up because one of the things that, like, drew me into generative art specifically was I think it was NFT NYC. Jesus. I might be dating myself in web three terms to make me a dinosaur. It was either three or four years ago when ArtBlocks had that three story Samsung screen, and their art scaled to it. I was enamored. And I fell in love with not only gen art, but a couple different artists because when you saw something go from, you know, your phone to a three story building and the it was resolution agnostic, it just blew my mind. And I feel like, again, these are just the stories that that very seldom come out, and it's needed in order for, like, the the space to expand in the spay in the collectors to have the confidence in it.
And it's I mean, to give a a short plug to to what you're doing, Satoshi, is, like, the museum, it's about digital initiative, and it's about displaying stuff properly. It's about showing it. And I think it's why the three of us show up and to support this is because what you're doing takes courage, but it's also about honoring the art form and honoring the display. And I think that through initiatives like your own and some initiatives that I have that are not official yet, like, these are the things that that are that are going to help the space grow in a sustainable fashion. So, you know, we're we're all grateful to be here, but we also wouldn't be here if it wasn't for what you're trying to build.
So I did wanna bring it around and just say, like, supporting you and supporting the initiative is just as important as everything that we're talking about because good people there are actually a ton of them in this space, but supporting the good people and finding a way to to propagate good things is is really it's it's essential for everything to thrive. If I'm gonna sell more art on eight AMP, there has to be more people. There has to be people who are interested, and you bringing more eyes, to it is is one part of many that's necessary to to onboard and and fascinate more people.
Speaker 11 I appreciate that, and I completely agree on the side of, you know, bringing more people into the space. It's it's a crucial thing. And today, I would say that I learned a lot from just asking a couple of these questions to a few different people. Like, really just asking the question of, like, what would attract people into this space? And reflecting over these types of things with high level thinkers like all of you guys. Like, just thinking about how, you know, we were attracted into this space for one reason or another. And in for me, it was in early twenty twenty one. Like, I was attracted in because I saw the promise of or the potential of crazy riches. I was intrigued by crypto. I was intrigued by how these art projects were launching, and Beeple did $69,000,000.
And, you know, a lot of people point to those landmark moments as interest inflections. And now, you know, like, we talked early in the talk how, you know, there was a surge of interest, and then it kind of waned, dramatically. And then now it's slowly building back up. We're building the foundations for a realistic space. It's important to think about how do we display these works. It's important to think about how do we, bring all these works together across wallets. It's important to think about how are we lifting up the existing artists from the emerging side to the more prominent side and tackling these types of things and asking these questions and coming together to discuss and also having an interface for new people to plug into these types of conversations.
I think that it's incredibly, incredibly important, And, that's why I really commend you all for coming here and spending the time to, you know, have this conversation and to also be so open to share all the wisdom that you have and experience. Like, when it comes back to, like, you know, navigating a changing market and long term perspectives, I think that, ultimately, we're all at this point where the market is in its infancy, and the edges that we have are, like Jared was saying, being able to reach out to anyone. Like, I literally massively agree, and I've talked with Matt about this as well, on how 90 to 95% of the work for any launch should be done through DMs. It should be done in advance of it hitting the timeline. And I think of it as, like, the tip of the spear phenomenon where you sharpen that spear over and over and over.
You do that through DMs, and then you bring it out to the timeline. Only because right now, you can get in front of basically anybody just for messaging them. DM most people have their DMs open. So it's edges like that. It's edges like thinking about what isn't being solved that is a wide open market. There are no web three museums. There's museums that are bringing on digital art. There's museums that are starting to champion emerging artists and prominent artists. We're seeing zero ten at Art Basel. We're seeing more stuff happening within the space, but there's no web three museum preserving the history. That's a wide open market, and I would be surprised if the digital asset museum was the only museum that started trying to tackle, historical preservation and storytelling. You know, we see node launching, massive massive player entering the space there with a lot of liquidity behind them.
We'll see what they do to lift up the space. They're already lifting up the CryptoPunks brand. But, getting back to the edges that we have, and directing over to Matt, I wanna ask you about, like, what edges do you feel like that we currently are are are available to us as builders and as creators that, are still very, very new and early? Like, mentioned, advertising is now revealing itself to me as an edge that I feel like is, you know, untapped within our space, and DMs, like Jared mentioned. But, how do you feel about that? Like, what edges do you think exist currently that are, really underleveraged and that you think anyone watching could really benefit from the perspective on?
Speaker 9 I feel like I'm just gonna end up stealing answers from the other two guys, which I think is fair. The the network effect is absolutely still an edge at this point in the game. I mean, network is your net worth, but it's so much more than that. I think that you have access immediate access to people that can have an impact on you as a collector, as an artist, and be that advocate or, like, the megaphone for what you're doing instantaneously without you even having to pay for it. And in the traditional world, that's unheard of. And so it's being able to build those relationships with the people that can be the advocates for what you're doing in a very, authentic way, like Jared said. Like, not in a sales y type way, but build relationships over time and use that to kind of be your platform.
Right? Like, you have access to the masters of the space unlike anywhere else, I think. And then we've talked about a bunch of different events that are happening around web three world. It's still very, very easy to get access to those events in real life. I mean, in the traditional art world, things are completely gated. And I think that it's an extremely undertapped way to build those relationships in a better way and also just kind of, like, take, the reins of our space is to go and be in person at some of these things that are happening because they're open to the public. Right? And they're still small scale. Even NFT, NYC, as much as it's grown, is it's super accessible. Same with Marfa, even though it's harder to get there. Some of the events that are base or Basil, like, go do these things.
Even if you don't have an agenda. Immerse yourself in it, because you're still able to do it without massive sky high pricing or access being your challenge to it or your gate.
Speaker 11 Love that. I I completely agree. I think we're in a very, very amazing moment to be experiencing this revolution. To be building within it is, I think, one of the most incredible, awesome things about the space right now is that we have the potential to mold it the way that we really see. Like, all of the things that Ben mentioned on like, from display to wallet aggregation to the the problems of, like you know, all the things we experience that we know really should be solved. We have an opportunity to really proliferate those solutions and have a big hand in them, and we're really, right now, making the history. And we're gonna be the ones that are really writing these history books ultimately. Like, it's because we're the ones living it, so we're gonna be the ones telling it. That's only the natural way.
And, of course, that's a big mission of the Digital Asset Museum is preserving the history in that way. We have those initiatives, and, we're pushing those forward. But it's about all of the players coming together, I think. I think that this next level for Web three is really us uniting to push forward versus all of the styloid competition side by side, everyone rushing for the gold. It's more like now we're like, okay. Who's left? And let's work together. Let's unite. Let's really help each other. Let's, like, exchange our secrets. Let's, talk about what's working and what's not. Let's talk about what we're thinking is next. And all of these things help make a big difference, I think, for all of the builders that are still here to make the space better. So Completely agree. I appreciate, you guys, coming through and hearing out my mini TED talk there.
But, really, I'm just so stoked on the space. And, all of the talk from today, from this talk specifically too, really makes me bullish on web three and bullish on being a part of it and being here tackling these problems. As we wrap up the space, again, with the thought on long term navigation, I wanna ask each of you, like, a rapid fire sort of question. If you had to give one piece of advice to someone who wants to still be here in five years from now building, what would that piece of advice be today? So we'll start
Speaker 4 with Jared. I would say scratch your own itch and build what you wanna see. I mean, we're we're still so early. There's a need for just about everything that you could possibly think of. I I started eight nap what feels like out of the blue, but for eighteen months, I was thinking there needed to be something more to support artists. So I created the platform that I wish existed. Not to say other things don't exist or they're not great, but I I scratched my own itch. And because of that, I think you're gonna approach it with more passion, and you're gonna be able to have longevity in the space and make a more meaningful impact. So, you know, sit on your hands for as long as you can, but once you see that thing and you're you're moved by it emotionally, go all in is what I would recommend.
Speaker 11 Love that. Let's move over to Matt. Matt, what do you think? If you had to give one piece of advice to someone who wants to still be here in five years building and thriving, what would that be?
Speaker 9 Share what you're working on and what you wanna be working on. They're experts in the space from technology and, just kind of the the history of the space in general and use them, take meaningful feedback, and iterate, and keep sharing actively.
Ben Hell yeah. And, Ben, what about you? I don't don't do anything too rapid fire, so I'll give you two. So number one, if you wanna still be in the space and like I said, I've been doing blockchain since twenty ten, twenty eleven. Do it because it's interesting and it's a passion. Right? If you're just in it to make money and extract, go find your next thing. We've got lots of grifters that came in. They did crypto. Now they're doing AI. So if you really want do your passion. Do something you're interested in. And number two is, especially as an artist, preservation and context. Right? We we talked about it. One of the best examples is go to xCopy's website. Right? You can see everything he's meant, and you can see where it was meant. You can see what it was. And then like we said, context is key.
Right? That's true of great collectors. That's true of great artists. And I'm the worst example of it for myself. It's always on my to do list, though. It's like every day is, you know, I should really put this all in one place. So that's my two things. Follow your passion and preservation and context as a collector, as an artist. And if you do about all those things, you'll you'll probably still be around for a long time.
Speaker 11 Incredible. I really appreciate all of y'all coming here today, sharing your wisdom, sharing your experience, spending your time. And it's a testament to your belief in Web three, and your energy that you're pouring in is a testament to where you see the space going and the love that you're pouring into the space, which I really appreciate. And I feel like our space is uniting more and more. I feel like we're getting we're making progress every day. And I'm really, really, really bullish, like I said, on where we're headed. And like Jared said in the beginning, I do feel I completely agree. Like, there will be another bull run, And those building now, pouring in their energy and their time and their resources to making the space what they want it to be, they're going to inevitably reap the rewards of doing that and sow the seeds now.
Continue working, pouring in the midnight oil, and going hard to make something because you believe in it, like Ben said. Really, do it because you believe in it and because you know, if you sat here and watched today, it says we have 985 viewers. That's absolutely incredible, and, I appreciate everyone who spent time here today on the stream. Tomorrow, we're gonna be back at 12:00. Well, 12PM eastern. We'll have six more talks, and super, super stoked on that. Yeah. I'm I'm really grateful for you guys coming to spend the time today. Thank you, and we will see everybody again tomorrow. Some of you guys will be on some more of those panels and talks. So I'm really stoked on those. Thank you guys again for coming through.
Speaker 4 Love it. Thanks for having us. Yeah. Thank you. Appreciate it. It's so great.
Ben Yeah. This was very fun. Cheers, everyone.
Speaker 11 Awesome. Much love, guys. To wrap it up, I will say that, again, I appreciate everybody coming through. I appreciate everyone's wisdom from the whole entire day. We'll start to, hit our outro here, and, I'll see you guys tomorrow for those of you that will be in more talks. Much love y'all. Lovely. Alright. Just some words, as we wrap up. I like I said, I really appreciate everybody who has been here today watching, and I am so optimistic on the future of this space. I'm grateful to be building within this space, and I'm grateful for every single one of you that spent time to learn from something today from people today that were speaking. Whatever you took from this, I hope that you go out and you feel inspired to take action, to build something, to, help somebody in the space, to engage with another artist or learn about an artist or share about an artist's work or, ask more questions.
My DMs are always open. Reach out to me if you have questions about this space. All of the material from today has been recorded. We will be putting it into our educational platform. So the whole entire purpose of the summit is to bring everyone together to speak on topics that really the space really wants to talk about, from preservation to art to building to developing. And, ultimately, we're gonna be taking all of those topics and putting them into a public good free platform for anybody to access to be able to learn about web three. We're gonna be adding supplemental Material way beyond just the summit's talks and materials. We're gonna be adding materials on how to get started as an artist, as a builder, as a dev, as a trader, as anything that you would wanna do in web three.
A place to guide people to when they say, how do I get started? You send them here. And that's what we're building. That's what we're working towards as a free public good, free forever for anybody to access. We wanna scale web three education to millions of people and really grow this space by giving people the tools to be able to build within it, creating the environment for people to make friends and to build something that mean means a lot to them. This whole entire thing is fueled by sponsors. So you've seen at the bottom of the screen here powered by NightShare, our lead sponsor. Shout out to NightShare, and I wanna make a quick shout out to the rest of the sponsors from Summit, which has been Cindy, MJ Data, o x m q q, Jason Patterson, Danielle Patterson, DeFi dot fun, Autonomous Artifact, Spuma, Killian, BaseThanos, the, Okay DeeGen Project, Felix Felix Felix and Cypherdudes, and also our latest sponsor, Odeus.
So much love and appreciation to you all for fueling this. It really would not be possible without the generosity of sponsors taking the time and energy and giving their resources to go directly towards building this. That is what created this summit. So thank you for you all. And, if you feel compelled to donate or sponsor, you can go to the link in our bio. It's the endowment link. We are a five zero one c three nonprofit. So if you feel compelled to give even as little as a dollar to $5, upwards to however much you would feel compelled to give, it all is a tax deductible write off. You would get an instant tax deductible receipt. And if you do give, please reach out to me so that I can know that it was you. And, again, I appreciate you all for being here today and, spending the time to learn and engage.
So much love. We will see you all tomorrow, and, we'll we'll talk to you then. Peace.